Full Transcript

Dhruv Sharma: Hey there, listeners. We had a minor glitch, but everything is okay now. Today is Monday, August 31. This is stream number 132. We have three guests today, and all three of them have recently announced fundraises. Our first guest is Shashank Tibrewal, who's the founder of a company called Typsy Beauty. He's just concluded a raise led by Saama Capital. Shashank, welcome to The Offline Network.

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Thanks for the welcome and the intro. Mm-hmm.

Utsav Somani: We look forward to having you also back on the co-host episode. I mean, not episode 100, actually. We've completed that milestone, but we turn one tomorrow. September 1 is when all this started.

Dhruv Sharma: We turn one. Yes. Stream turns one. Back just in time.

Utsav Somani: That's a special stream. Let's go.

Dhruv Sharma: Thank you. Yes. So, Shashank, maybe let's just start with you introducing the company and the brand.

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Yeah. Sure. So Typsy started around four years ago. As a brand, we have so far focused largely on color cosmetics, category. Lastly, building makeup products in different categories like lips, face, eyes, etcetera. We have recently, expanded into fragrances and launched some fragrances. It's been roughly twelve months now. As a brand, we are focused heavily on the, on two things. Right? I think one is the emotional aspect of makeup, and people don't realize it. And, traditionally, brands have always looked at makeup as a functional item. And especially, us as men, we tend to look at makeup as functional. But you go and ask, women around you or users around you, and you will see that, there's a different kind of confidence that they get when they apply a lipstick or do a touch up before a meeting. And and as a brand, we have been focused we want to focus on that emotional aspect. Right? The the confidence that makeup gives. And the other aspect is that make makeup that can stand out on its own in global arena. Right? So make sure your products are of that good quality that more if somebody from outside India are able to go and sell it in one the international market, people will say, yeah, this is a really high quality makeup product. Right? So, yeah, that that's what we are focused on building.

Utsav Somani: And I'm gonna ask the price point question. So you're playing in that band 600 to 900, and anything less, you have to cut out ingredients and reduce the effectiveness. Anything more than you're competing with the global brands, so deliberate choice?

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Yeah. A deliberate choice. And I I you're you're quite right, right, the way that you have explained it. When you want to offer a certain kind of quality to the consumer, and a certain cost associated with it. Right? The SOP that you follow with your manufacturer, you can't manufacture it every every, at any factory. You need, ingredients of certain quality. Our packaging, has certain, quality or certain aspects attached to it. Right? So all of that cost builds up, and then, we needed to make sure that we have certain margin also, and that's why the flow of 600. I think on the that 900 range of higher, I believe it's it's a journey. The moment you go higher in India, luxury starts at especially when it comes to cosmetics. In customers, my luxury starts at 1,100, 1,200 and so price point. Right? And at that price point, you are competing with, international brands who have a legacy of forty plus years, be it Too Faced, Benefit, or Charlotte Tilbury. So deliberate choice to make it more accessible and make it more affordable for the team consumer without compromising on the quality aspect.

Dhruv Sharma: Shashank, can you give us a sense of where consumers can discover and purchase, Typsy Beauty products? And I believe you guys also have a storefront at T3, at the international departures terminal?

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Yes. Yes. Yes. Consumers can, really purchase and discover our products across all channels. And by all channels, I mean our own website, Typsybeauty.com, Or they can discover us on Blinkit, Instamart, Nykaa, Amazon, Zepto, Flipkart, Tira, every other marketplace. Or they can walk into one of our stores. We have a store in DLF Promenade. We have one at t three international departures. We have also one store for those in Bangalore. We have one in, Mallogar, and we are presenting Broadway outlets also. So if you happen to be in Pune or Hyderabad or Delhi, you can visit the Broadway outlets and explore our products. Can you

Utsav Somani: pick a hero product and tell us the journey from, say, a lab, which makes even products like Rare Beauty and Road, I believe, added online

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Yes.

Utsav Somani: Which are some of the global brands. So lab to actual retail, like, what all gets added in cost? How is it discovered? How is it improved? How does it reach the customer? And what's your margin like?

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): See, I think when you when you talk about the journey of the product, I think there are two parts blended in your question. Correct me if I'm wrong. There is one part about just, like, how does the product start from a concept stage to a final product, and then the whole margin structure around it. But, see, when you work with a lab, the the cost that the lab gives you is purely the cost of those ingredients and, making that product. Right? On top of that, there is packaging cost to be included. There is logistics cost to be included. All of that blended in what what you often hear people talk about cost of goods sold or COGS. Right? And all of that blended comes in cost. And whatever MRP I'm selling at, that minus cost becomes my gross margin. And gross margin is actually a lot of people end up discussing. However, in beauty world per se, gross margin is not the, ideal step where one should stop. Very often, people will think of beauty and say that we cross margins look very attractive. But what they forget about is, like, from the product reaching us to making the product or the brand reach customer, there are ton of other cost that get added. Right? And people often forget about those costs in their discourse. They forget about the fact that there's a marketing cost associated. If I have to make my brand known to people, I have to invest and I have to run ads. I have to invest in certain partnerships. All of that take money. Right? There is operations involved. There is delivery cost. There is in India, there is a huge problem of returns. That gets that adds on to your cost. Right? So, then there is, then there are some other cost like influencer expenses, etcetera, etcetera. Like, all of that eat then all of those come in your margin. Right? So, ideally, what one should be looking at is contribution level margin for for any product or any brand in this space.

Dhruv Sharma: Staying with that margin structure question, Shashank, I'm curious. Is it different for color cosmetics? Is it different for fragrances?

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): It will be. So to some extent, yes, because the core components themselves are changing. In fragrances, for example, the bottles themselves have to be very attractive. Right? And the bottles are made up of glass. They have a certain volume. They have a certain weight. So all of that adds on to your cost. Right? Then in fragrances, actually, the interesting thing which which a lot of people don't realize that there is a just purely in terms of ingredients. There is a huge range pricing that exists of what quality of ingredient that we use. Fragrance oil that one uses, you can they start at as low as, let's say, 700, 800 rupees a liter, then they can go up to 20,025 thousand per liter. Right? Which significantly changes the, the costing of the product. So, yeah, the margin structure will differ also because the product form factor is different. Right? So a fragrance will tend to be bulky. So even, like, forget about the cost to me, but even if, the fragrance bottle is larger, right, just a bulkier product, the cost of shipping is higher. Plus, it's a breakable product. It can get damaged easily during shipping, so you need to take that much more protection around it. It. So that cost, builds up. So different elements of the cost come in depending on the category, and that end up changing the margin structure. So, I

Utsav Somani: mean, from what I understand about the fragrance market, there is, like, somewhat of alcohol, there's mixers, then, apparently, the fragrance oil that you put in it, and that ends up defining, what the thing is called, like perfume or is it called you're the I mean, sorry. My pronunciation about these things always goes wrong. So can you do a fragrance one on one, one on one on how you name these products?

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): So yeah. So, see, there are two free components I'd say. Right? Everything is, is important, but the two most important ingredients are, is the alcohol itself and the fragrance oil that you are using. The alcohol matters because the because almost every fragrance, even if it is x-ray. Right? That's 70% or 65% is alcohol and 335% is oil. Right? So the quality of the alcohol matters because ultimately that's what's sitting on your skin. And that, again, the range will vary from $60.70 rupees a liter to 700,000, 2,000 per liter. Right? So and it matters as a consumer, you won't be able to tell the difference, but the difference is what's actually inside and what's sitting on your skin. Right? Then the fragrance oils themselves, natural fragrance oils tend to be very expensive. The synthetic ones tend to be cheaper. And, again, though, there is a whole spectrum, where you can go as low as $6,700 rupee and go as as high as $3,040,000 rupees or even higher. Right? A little. In terms of different kinds of perfume, so at one in six, it's extrait de parfum, which is 30% or higher oil concentration. In Indian weather, that matters because India is a very hot and humid climate. So the higher the oil concentration, the longer the perfume is likely to stay on mood. Right? By the way, sorry. I am digressing slightly from the topic, but this is one thing that I've often seen. People often judge perfumes in terms of longevity, and they say, yeah, I may go without fit now. Longuinity. It needs to stay here. Why? What they don't realize is that the longevity of the perfume actually depends on your body chemistry. It varies. The same perfume can last much longer in me than you. Right? And it depends on how much you sweat, and other aspects of your of your body chemistry. It depends on whether I'm applying on my pulse point. It depends on whether I'm applying on my fabric. Right? So extrait de parfum is the highest concentration. Then comes EDP, which is around 20% oil concentration, then then EDT, or eau de toilette, which is a lower concentration, and then deodorant is another category. So that's the that's the rain. Most of our perfumes in fact, all of our perfumes are extrait de parfum. That's a very conscious choice that we have we have taken in our performance.

Dhruv Sharma: Shashank, earlier on, you said something along the lines of the fact that, you know, when when consumers are buying your products, they're not buying, you know, clinical products prescribed by derma. They're buying something which, like I mean, they have an emotional relationship with their appearance. These products help them, in a sense, improve their appearance for the better. So how does how does that insight translate into how you, position the brand, for instance, how you package the products, for instance, how you tell the brand story, for instance?

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): So, I'd like to correct one thing about about what you said. Right? It's not about products imputing your appearance, but it's about improving your confidence. That's a very subtle change that we want to do. Right? Because, makeup is not about just improving your appearance. Right? Now how does it translate? So, and this goes back to why Typsy started. Right? Typsy came out of an well, if you have read our journey, it came out of a very personal journey of my cofounder who herself struggled through mental health issues, in her teenage years, and then makeup became her refuge or a way out of that. Right? Every aspect of the product, right, from the packaging to the concept is now centered around that. It should it should give a sense of joy. It should induce fun. Right? Oh, I see. Neeraj is here. Hi, Neeraj. So for example, we have a rose blush, which is actually a blush, which is shaped like a 3D rose. Right? Now that's apart from and it's a cream-to-powder formula, which doesn't become cakey etcetera in Indian weather. But more than that, just visually so appealing, so beautiful that women love to have that displayed on their vanity. At the at the end of the spectrum, there is something which is as scientific as the color changing lip oil. Right? And the whole, thought behind that lip product is that everybody has different skin, and their shade of pink is different. Right? What suits them is different from what suits you, from what suits me. Right? So create a product that, that creates a shade of pink that works on most of the people. Right? And then once you see that it gives a natural glow to your lipstick, and that makes it lips, and that makes you happy. Right? Our packaging is designed in a way that it becomes sensorial. We launched lip balms, last year. And in all lip balms, we have metal tip applicator. We're one of the first brand. I think we're the first brand in India. Even globally, we were one of the first brand to introduce that metal applicator. And then again, it's something different. It gives a cooling feel when applied. It gives you a sensorial, feel when when you're using it. And that's a very minor detail about the packaging. Right? So when I say that, yes, our brand is about connecting to the emotional aspect of makeup, these are the different things that we take care of so that we ensure that vision that we have turns into reality.

Utsav Somani: And you mentioned in the beginning of the stream where you said that makeup and products that you do are functional. I mean, people treat your products as functional. So you've done multifunctional products as well. Is that because Indian consumer wants more value for their buck, or they just, I mean, strap for time? Or what was that unique insight that led you to creating multifunctional products? Like, skincare and makeup in one or stuff like that.

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Indian consumer definitely wants more value for the product. But for us, one of the key insights was there. Can I make their life easier, or can I just reduce the pain point that that they have? Right? So one of the first multifunctional products that we launched was a, a new take on lipstick, which we call twist and pout, which has a lipstick at one end and a liner at other end. And a lot of women use lipstick with liners. The challenge is that the liner shade needs to be matched to the lipstick shade that you have. And then you need to make sure that when you are when you are traveling or when you are doing anything, they need to carry the right shade of the liner. Right? And it doesn't need to be the exact shade, but it needs to be one or two shade darker than the lipstick, for the right application. Right? And we said, why not solve this issue? When when when a product like this can exist, we just takes away this entire pain here, pre match the shade of the liner to the lipstick, then make sure you have one for every lipstick that you want. Then make sure you are carrying the right thing when you are traveling like this. Reduce that. There's no reason why this should exist. So yeah. And that's the that's the thought behind multifunctional product. Can we can we solve so they should not purely exist because they're giving more value for money to the consumer, but they should also be solving some sort of consumer problem. Right? That's the distinction I've made between a BOGO offering which is get plus value for money.

Dhruv Sharma: Shashank, when you guys make growth decisions, let's say launching a new SKU or entering a new category, is that are those decisions, what one might call consumer led? Are they market led? In other words, do your existing consumers define the product road map? Are you also paying attention to what's happening in the market and where the organic demand, the pull is coming from? Talk us a little bit about that.

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Yeah. It's a it's a mix of three things. Like you said, a, what is our own con community of consumers or community of people who love Typsy? Are they asking for? B, what are the trends that we are seeing in the market? What is working? What is not working? And c, which is most important, what are the trends that are that are still not there in the market, but we believe can and become big. Right? And the last part is what makes us slightly different. For example, when we launched color changing lip oil, there is nothing like that in Indian market. And maybe the first one. We spotted because we were figuring one of the fails. We spotted, and that was a different formula. It was not a transparent label. Then we said, yeah. Let's try to work up on this. The core promise seems interesting. And can we make it transparent? Because transparent to pink is what would work in Indian context, etcetera, etcetera. And then we came up with that product. Recently, we launched a foundation. Right? Now foundation is one of the largest categories within makeup, one of the most high repeat categories, and every, people have been asking us for our foundation for the longest time. But for us, again, it was that, okay. Is there something different that we can do? And what is that difference that we believe can be incorporated? And that is where the community feedback angle came into play where, we could understand, okay, how if we if we help them collapse some of the routines of of their base makeup that that helps, solve that makes the product attractive for them. And that is why we went with our recent product, which is the form. So if some of your audience has come across it, they'll know it's a concealer and a foundation and a sunscreen mixed in one. Right? So

Utsav Somani: yep. There's a final question. Sorry, Dhruv.

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I'm just saying that, like, it's it's not one thing that leads to a product being launched. It is it is a amalgamation of two, three things, and then you always have to have your notes stuff. For us, the notes are this innovation and, like, the the innovation through that material to solve solve customer problem. And then your consumer inside, you have to put inside if anything gets becomes a.

Utsav Somani: Shashank, before we let you go, there is one, I think insight that perhaps you can share after building and scaling, Typsy. I mean, you're on the scale up journey, but now also launching Spritz. What are the learnings that you're, entering the various channels with, from Typsy beauty into the fragrance market? And what's the white space that you identified?

Shashank Tibrewal (Typsy Beauty): Yep. For us, launching fragrance was not, another category launch or entering into a market. In fact, fragrance specifically was something that came across that came up very strongly from our own community that why doesn't Typsy have I have has its own. My cofounder, Gabby, she's a lover of fragrances. She used to create fragrances related content here. And then we started then the chatter started, and then we thought to finish lots fragrances. If you see a lot of there are a lot of learning that we have taken from how we have built Typsy so far, and how we have scaled so far to to what we're doing for businesses. Specifically, any question around channels, there each channel is also different purpose. Everyone has to, like, realize the role that the channel plays in this entire ecosystem. Your D2C is what leads to discovery. Or I would say Meta and Google, they lead to discovery. They lead to awareness. Your quick commerce today is more like your distribution point. You have to have to be present there. You have to ensure availability. Otherwise, it's almost like your neighborhood kirana store. If you're not present there, then you will losing on a demand. Right? Your Nykaa still is a discovery led platform. Amazon is a pure subject platform. So every channel, every platform has its own nuance. Right? And some of that, we did not understand that, and that will three, four years back. The faster that one understands that, the better it becomes for scale. And I think those are some of the things that we are trying to do, right, with our Spritz line.

Utsav Somani: Alright. Thank you so much for coming on our show. Wishing you and the team our very best. Alright, listeners. Thank you. Thanks, Shashank. Alright, listeners. Moving on to our next segment, we've got Neeraj of Asaya. Neeraj, welcome to the show.

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): Hi. Hi. Thanks, Hi, Dhruv.

Dhruv Sharma: Hey.

Utsav Somani: Big fan of what you built at Paperboat. So my first question is gonna lead from there. Paperboat was packaged, drinking I mean, a packaged beverage with nostalgia around it, and now you're solving, hyperpigmentation, at Asaya. So tell us how does one make that jump?

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): So came from a personal story, also my cofounder, who's also my wife. We were in US for two years, and she's tried to self medicate her adult acne and ended up burning her entire skin. Went to a doctor to realize that how melanin rich skin or brown skin consumers are different, and the the entire science of that skin is different. The make is slightly nuanced, and the issues that consumers face is also is also very different. And the science is a fairly recent science. So if you look at the math papers from 2000 onwards, dermatologists and, scientists have been talking about this change and how to approach problems of the skin type. And we thought that you know, and back then, we were in US. So we thought that probably it's a it's a newer or a smaller category in US. But in India, it should be, like, the mainstream. Right? But we couldn't find any products for melanin rich consumers. And so the opportunity presented itself. We thought that we can make a dent in this, in this market and serve our consumers right. So that's the genesis of the idea.

Utsav Somani: Yeah.

Dhruv Sharma: Neeraj, can you tell us a little bit about the science, behind why melanin rich, consumers deserve their own products and not just something generic off the shelf?

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): Yeah. So so, Dhruv, if you so, you know, explain it using examples, and then you will realize. So if you look at let's take an example of, aging. Right? Now if you look at aging in Caucasian skin, right, from 30 to 40, years of age, you will start seeing wrinkles of the skin on the skin. Right? And that is why most of the antiaging or proaging creams and moisturizers are all anti wrinkle by like, the problem that they're trying to solve is anti wrinkle. However, if you look at our skin type, you know, we don't we don't age first through wrinkles, but we age through sagging. Right? The structure of skin is different. The collagen inside the skin for us starts to break down early, and hence, it starts to sag versus, let's say, you know, in a Caucasian skin. So for us, proaging would mean how do you solve sagging issue first and wrinkle issue much much later. Whereas the entire and if you look at any, you know, proaging cream in India, they're all talking about anti anti wrinkle, which is a very Caucasian phenomenon. And I'm you would know a lot of consumers in their age group of 30 to 50, even 60. You would hardly see wrinkles on our faces. Right? But you would see jawlines kind of dispersing, the sharpness going down, it's kind of sagging, double chin showing up, etcetera. It's a very nuanced, differentiated problem for melanin in the skin. That's one. The other is obviously hyperpigmentation because, we produce more melanin, which is a very natural way of self defense for the skin, largely for sun exposure. That doesn't happen in Caucasian skin. Right? So we so hyperpigmentation, very unique, issue for, melanin rich skin, and that is what, as a first problem, we have taken upon ourselves to solve. We are trying to solve the antiaging issue also or proaging in terms of, you know, anti sagging, but we have we are still not being able to solve it.

Utsav Somani: And you talk about a fourteen day result on hyperpigmentation, and I think the science or the magic behind this is an active called MelaMe. Right? So did you develop this in house? What is the science behind it? Is it specific delivery mechanisms or some specific composition? You're filing for a patent for this also. Right?

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): Yeah. So our first patent was filed in 2025. We launched this complex, which is proprietary in nature in twenty twenty four August. We developed this with a Korean research and development organization, and the IP is assigned to us under a special specific commercial contract that we have with them. So it belongs only to us. It cannot be sold to anyone else. This is based on a very recent Nobel Prize, Nobel Prize paper that won Nobel Prize in 2016 in the field of medicine, which talks about autophagy in cells. Right? So the extract that we it's a phyto extract. It's a phyto and certain other active combination. So it gives you a synergistic effect. And it is it is also a process patent because it requires a different kind of process to mix these two, or three extracts that we have. But the genesis of this idea is that it mimics proteins that helps you, kind of induce autophagy in deposited melanin at the epidermis. See, the the consumer insight here forget the size. The consumer inside is that we start to worry about this once you see hyperpigmentation on the skin. Well, the journey of hyperpigmentation would have started much earlier. So the melanocytes at your dermis, which is the lowest level of your skin, would have produced, then melanin would have gotten transferred to epidermis, which also takes time, and now it is showing up. Right? All the other actives that you have for hyperpigmentation, work on either reducing the production of tyrosinase or basically melanin or their transfer. However, we as consumers only start to react once we see it on in the mirror, which means that it has been produced and it has been transferred. This, on the other hand, this compound, on the other hand, works on the deposited melanin on the epidermis through this new, phenomena. And that is why consumers see an immediate effect. While we also do tyrosinase inhibition and pathway, like, you know, the transfer and the production. But the key differentiator here is that we work on deposited melanin on the epidermis.

Dhruv Sharma: Neeraj, you know, as you're speaking, it's almost to me, it's almost like you're speaking in a different language, like Greek. Like, I I don't know this stuff. And so as a so my question would be that as a consumer, how can I expect to get educated about these things? Who does the onus lie on? Should I be self educating, I don't know, going to a dermatologist or I believe they call it aestheticians or or relying on the brand to the extent that they can educate me as a consumer?

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): So proof, interestingly enough and this question would have been my answer to this question would have been very different, like, fifteen years ago. But today consumers or a or some set of consumers are very evolved. They understand this, but they are small in number. However, the problem is faced by a large segment of our population. Right? So to give you an give you a number, almost eighty percent of Indians who have acne, and acne is a form of inducing hyperpigmentation, will end up having hyperpigmentation. Right? And eighty percent of India will end up having acne because because the environment and the skin again, excess sebum production, etcetera. So we're talking about 65% of Indian consumer base who will face this issue at some point or the other, but no solution that was existing. Right? So people are looking for solution. Now people who are very, very evolved and can afford go to a dermatologist, but that's a small segment again. People who self educated are also very small, but increasing in number. But these consumers who self educate also kind of disseminate information. So some of the consumers also listen to them, etcetera, on social media, on their own personal experience. So there is some set of consumers we get which are primed to try products for hyperpigmentation. And if they end up getting solution that works, then they stick to it. Right? A large part of this education has to be done by brand also. So when we are talking about a unique way of solving problem, obviously, we will have to educate our consumers much more. With limited capital, the first thing that we are spending on is the science of it. Right? So we make the product better. Maybe our growth will be smaller or slower because consumers will try the product, believe in the product, and then talk about it. Once we once we have enough capital to kind of go and educate consumers at a large scale, we will also do that. But, presently, I would say we are making the product better. We are relying upon upon a small set of consumers who have either tried or know about this mechanism to speak about it, and then product do the selling. Like, you try the product and then you repeat the product.

Utsav Somani: Talking about capital and improving the product, you raised 88 crores by RPSG Capital recently. Congrats on that. And you mentioned that approximately a fifth of that capital will be going into R&D, which is unusually high for a D2C brand. Let alone any other company.

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): Even higher than, let's say, Unilever globally. So Unilever globally spends anywhere between eight to 10% on complete R&D. You'll be spending twice of that. Right? And simply because you know, when you're making a very generic product or product where basic science has been sorted for

Utsav Somani: Everything will revolve around hyperpigmentation, or will you have other missions as well?

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): So so we will have other missions as well, We will take top three concerns of of melanin rich consumers, problems which are unsolved. Right? So first problem, obviously, is hyperpigmentation. Second is, again, as I talked about, is antiaging, where it is not solved rightly. So that's another area of concern for us. The third is acne, which is solved to a larger extent. But the issue with consumers when we spoke to consumers, we figured out that faster delivery is critical for acne. Right? Like, a consumer is very impatient with acne. And so it requires a different approach altogether. And given the fact that, you know, we cannot use very high strength that is on our skin because that'll lead to, again, hyperpigmentation, there's a balance to be done. And, honestly, sir, we started to we tried to solve all three problems together. We miserably failed. And so we said that these two problems will park it for now, and we'll only solve hyperpigmentation. First two and a half, three years of starting the company went into only trying to solve hyperpigmentation. Now we have a tech which we believe is at the leading edge in terms of solving hyperpigmentation at India scale. We are we will look at other problems also as we can. And that's why a large capital allocation towards R and D.

Dhruv Sharma: Neeraj, I think one question running through my mind is, like, how large is the consumer market, you know, for these products? We hear different estimates from different people. And is there is there any one proxy for all of it? Like, I mean, I'm just hazarding a guess. It's like, is is I don't know. The Nykaa user base, like, a 100% of, you know, the consumers that you can be selling to.

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): So, yes, Dhruv. So this is a this is a question that we keep asking ourselves as well. Right? And so if you're asking about how large the market is

Utsav Somani: I think,

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): There's an echo. Yeah.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. Sorry.

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): No no worries. So, Dhruv, we keep asking how large is the TAM, essentially. That's what you're asking. Right? So I'll so in India, OTC acne market is about $2,000,000,000 annually. Right? Eighty percent of people who will have acne will have hyperpigmentation. Right? That's a $1,000,000,000 market sitting there for hyperpigmentation. Right? Let's say fifty percent of that consumers wanted it solved. That's about $500,000,000 market for hyperpigmentation alone. I put it as 800 to $1,000,000,000 market, which is totally untapped, and it's a large market. Right? Largely online because you're talking to consumers who care about this product, who know enough about this product, etcetera. So to route to market is also kind of solved. So you just need a good product which works. So I would say, conservatively, $500,000,000 market size, optimistically, $101,000,000,000 market size, for hyperpigmentation alone. Antiaging, again, should be similar ish, and acne is anyway $22,500,000,000 market. So it's it's a fairly large three problems that you want to solve for India. And then you look at, you know, you have Mexico, you have Africa, you have Indian population in US, you have, like, African American population. So there's there's enough and more consumer markets which the severe the same product could work.

Utsav Somani: And how does I mean, when you're going after such a specific problem, like, how does the cohort work? Because you're I think only you've done some customer study, but you'd still need scientific evidence for this, any of your products.

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): Yes.

Utsav Somani: Does the cohort stick with you? Does it do they drop off if the claims are not, or Also,

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): sir, you'll be very surprised. You'll be very surprised, and there's something that we take real take real pride in. We have the highest repeat percentages. And this is Amazon PYDATA. Forget D2C data. Amazon PYDATA, which is highest repeat percentages in the segment that we operate in. So if it is serum, our advanced port serum has a repeat percentage, which is at least 12 percentage point higher than the number one brand. And I don't know what is the number one brand because Amazon does not disclose that information, but the number one brand in that category. That works for underarm, pigmentation as well as, you know, thigh pigmentation, neck and elbow cream, like, pigmentation body cream segment as well. So, so I think the Obviously, smaller number of consumers have tried our product, and so and, hence, once that word spreads, you will see more and more consumers trying to solve this product. Our price points are also not prohibited. We have consciously kept it within the reach of, you know, a large consumer segment for that market.

Utsav Somani: Yeah.

Dhruv Sharma: Yeah. Neeraj, I mean, let's assume there's, you know, there are 50 problems to solve for melanin rich, you know, consumers. And, over the course of, you know, science life, you're gonna do a great job of solving, let's say, 40 of those, 50 problems. 10 of them are still gonna be left unsolved. Now some entrepreneur who decides to solve those 10 problems is a few pieces behind you, comes to you asking for advice and wants to know, you know, what learnings you've had along the way about coming up with innovative formulations. What would you share with that entrepreneur? And if they were to ask you also about commercializing those, those, you know, innovations, those formulations, I sometimes think, like, you know, if you're a new brand going to a large lab or manufacturer, you don't have much leverage over them. How do you even, you know, initiate that conversation? How do you negotiate terms? So talk to us about the nuts and bolts of, you know, putting the back end operations together.

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): Sure. Sure. Sure. So the first part of your question is will I what will I share to an entrepreneur? And forget about forty, fifty problems. I'm right now solving one problem. And and I've seen that a lot of entrepreneurs are looking at this hyperpigmentation market itself, and I am I am glad. It's a large problem. Look through it will I will be lying if I say that I can solve all the problem myself. It's impossible. Right? And so I want good entrepreneurs to come and look at this market. It's a very interesting market. There are sub cohorts of consumer having differentiated problem and want a differentiated solution. Even if they come after my consumer segment, you know, it is only going to expand the market. So I share everything without any inhibition to an entrepreneur. Right? I may not share it with my investors or, you know, marketplaces or whatever. But if an entrepreneur comes, I share it, and I've done it already. I know there are two brands which will be launched in next six to eight months solving the same solving the same problem. Right? So so so that definitely, that happens. Now why will a why will a R and D Lab take me seriously? And that's a genuine question. We we are small. Why would RND Lab take take us seriously? But what I've seen is persistence really of course, I have to pay the RND Lab. They're not gonna give me a discount over, let's say, Unilever just because I want to do something different. But commercial aspects remaining the same. If you're persistent with your ask, more often than not, I have seen people go out of the way to kind of help us. And, and that that has happened personally to me twice already in in last five years, and we've we've been able to build something which larger companies would have maybe they would have tried or or will take a lot of time and effort and money to build it. But, these the the scientists and the PhD PhDs that we talk talk to, they are very happy that an entrepreneur is actually talking to them and trying to understand the science behind it. See, this is a very oversold category. Claims have been made. Products are not delivering. Consumers are not happy about it, and so are the innovators. Right? Because they see that a lot of tall claims are being sold to consumers, and they're disappointed. Right? So when they meet an entrepreneur who actually genuinely wants to solve a problem scientifically, they are you'll be surprised. I mean, I have spoken to one of, like, the best people in this category who are doing research, and they're very open to, speaking.

Utsav Somani: As a final closing one, personal curiosity because my friend runs one of the largest, skincare clinics in Delhi. So every year, I think he drops this new, trend on me, exosomes, red light therapy, copper peptides, and so many others. And then on the other hand, you've got these dermatologists. So do customers find these solutions by hit and trial because the dermatologists are probably not keeping themselves up to date with all of the new stuff that's happening?

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): I wouldn't say all dermatologists are that way. You will also find very progressive dermatologists who are keeping themselves updated on the skincare trends, but these trends are coming from Japan and Korea largely. And they are kind of very evolved in terms of how they want to or what they want to solve and how they want to solve that. Right? Good part is that because of social media influence and because of, you know, a lot of influencers now looking at Korean and Japanese market and bringing trends here, consumers are also kind of getting to or they are also demanding those solutions. And it's good for the market because then that really collapse is the innovation timelines. Right? Because otherwise, commercializing and then, you know, brands would like to sit on one innovation kind of milk it for business profit reasons rather than, giving something new. So so this trend is good because then it just collapses the whole, innovation cycle. But there are dermatologists even in India who are keeping themselves very updated. They're on social media. They advocate about these newer products and what it can do.

Utsav Somani: Alright, Neeraj. Wishing you the best, and congrats again on the milestone.

Neeraj Biyani (Asaya): Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Dhruv. Bye.

Utsav Somani: Alright, listeners. Moving on to our final segment. We've got Sourajit, who's the cofounder and CEO of an app called Utsav. Say that twice. So, Utsav as well.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Hello. Hi, Utsav.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. Let's introduce the business first.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Sure. So I think, firstly, just to, you know, have a quick fun. So I think, a lot of times, even my customers and people also, you know, call me by the same name itself. So I'm happy to, you know, also talk with another itself like that. I

Utsav Somani: should, like I mean, I mean, like, I should get some royalty from you guys. Right?

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Are are you holding your copyright?

Utsav Somani: I don't know, man. We might get into, like, SEO trouble online, like, without having the same name.

Dhruv Sharma: If you if you stay in this business long enough, your company's name becomes your last name. It's, like, Tim Apple. Right?

Utsav Somani: That's true. That's true. That's true. Mhmm. Alright. So what do you do Utsav? Sorry. It's gonna be funny for me, man. Dhruv, you're gonna ask a couple of these questions there. So there's a lot.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Completely get it, man. So me and my cofounders, we have the three of us, we have been like college friends. Right? We started this company back in when we're in fourth year of engineering school. Right? So I think all of us, we were belong we belong to the COVID batch. Right? And because of that, we missed out a lot of our fun days from college. Right? But I think luckily for the three of us, we actually found a purpose to build something more beautiful, and I think we devote a lot of time in doing that. Today, as a company, Utsav is an online marketplace where devotees can find connection with their favorite places of worship. Right? And engage with them meaningfully in the sense that they can offer pujas and religious services at across about 80 odd temples that are listed on our marketplace right now. Beyond that, they can also go to the extent of ordering for prasad and different kind of merchandises from these temples. As a company, we help both the ends, both the supply and the demand. On the supply side, what you find there are we are working with, let's say, a couple of temples which are at least a couple of decades or even centuries old. But these temples have forever been left out of the entire digital economy that is going on around around in our country right now. I think we are kind of the first few companies who are trying to build that entire digital framework for the temples to come online for the first time. And you'll find a meaningful connection with the devotees who might be situated anywhere across this planet. Right? I think, we feel very grateful in order to be able to do something so pious and holy. At the same time, in terms of the scale of the company, we are right now serving about 70,000 odd customers every single month. These customers are placing about two and a half lakh orders with us every month. I know as somebody who started this company fresh out of college, even we find kind of surprised that they it's been quite a long journey that we have also taken.

Dhruv Sharma: So 70,000 devotees, Sourajit, is that correct? We're placing 12 and a half lakh orders. So

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): No. Sorry. Not 12 and a half lakh. It's two two and a half lakhs. Two point Two and

Utsav Somani: a half lakh.

Dhruv Sharma: Right? But still, they're coming to you multiple times over the course of the week. And how many how many places of worship?

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): There are about 80, temples who are listed with us on the marketplace right now.

Dhruv Sharma: Mhmm. Can you also I'm sorry. We're just, you know, getting to know the data a little bit more. Can you also give us a sense of the demographic? Like, who are the who are the devout users here? How old are they?

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Absolutely. You know, so when we started out, in fact, our initial hunch was that, you know, there will be probably people coming from multiple economic sector, probably from a little bit in the lowest sector. But you know what we found out actually, in India, the most devoted and religious people and people who are actually conducting on the backgrounds do come from all kinds of classes. Right? Particularly, I think the last couple of months, we have been seeing about 70% plus of our customers coming from metros and tier one cities. For example, Bangalore happens to be the highest customer base for us followed by Mumbai, Kolkata, Delhi, Hyderabad, Chennai in that particular order. These customers, what we usually find, they belong to, like, a median age group of about 30 to 35 approximately. When they're booking a pooja or any kind of service on our platform, they're usually doing it for their entire family. So maybe they get their parents, their kids, their siblings all involved into that entire religious ceremony. And these customers, as I said, they are belonging from Metro cities. They're usually well-to-do. They are busy in their life having some business or some job or maybe their family and their parents to take care of. And as a result of that, you know, there's a lot of latent demand or latent intent that these customers have always been having. But the, you know, the constraints around them, which might be related to time, money, or, you know, just the amount of effort that they need to put in to maybe go on a pilgrimage once in a while, those things oftentimes just remain unfulfilled. I think when they found an opportunity that, okay, with utsav, we can actually make this possible. And even if I'm let's say once in a while, I'm not able to visit the temple, but the temple will still have a puja being offered with my name. These devotees, I feel, are, like, complete, you know, amazed to see that. And once they find value in the product, the office will keep coming back to us multiple times.

Utsav Somani: And what does onboarding a temple or a place of worship look like? That must be the hardest part, right, of the business because I think demand is already there in a country like ours, but supply is what I think, fuels the marketplace that you've built.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Absolutely. I think as you rightly said, for any marketplace, demand supply is always, you know, like a a thing. And for us, definitely, probably the egg and chicken part, the difficult part was only on the supply side. Right? So when we started this company, it was an even more difficult task. Right? For example, I can remember still, right, when I was in fourth year, right, of my engineering. So me and both my cofounders along with a few of our early team members, we actually visited, I think, so many of the temples from my native city, which is in Calcutta. Right? So we visited so many temples in and around Calcutta in West Bengal overall. We spoke with the priests, the trustees of those temples, and tried to understand what were the problems that we could solve for them. Right? So when we started building this platform, we even us as a platform, we do not have a very clear understanding what is the problem setting that we're looking to solve for. Right? When we spoke with these people, the trustees and the temples and the stakeholders over there, and we also tried to speak with the customers, like, only few customers who had joined us on our platform as, like, a community, we could see a very seamless requirement that the temples had a problem that while they have a lot of people coming in online, let's say, on their Facebook page, YouTube page, Instagram. Right? But they had no such tool wherein they could just aggregate all of those things and provide them a seamless experience. Right? And when we found that out, we built the platform for them. I think initially, when we rolled it out, we started off with one temple called Tarapid Temple, which is nearby to my city in Kolkata. Right? And I think post that it's been about four and a half years that we have been doing this. Right now, it's been about, like, 80 temples that are on the platform. And when you talk about onboarding the next set of temples, what the strategy that we usually follow, now that we have a couple of good POCs that we've already done, so we usually try to present that to the new temples. I think for temples, the value that we try to provide to them are twofold. One of them is, you know, trying to bring them a consistent source of revenue. So for like any other organization, even a temple has its own requirements for the temple to be, you know, working at its full capacity, being able to service the devotees and even the priests who are residing and working for the deities over there, they need a source of revenue. I think we are able to bring them that additional thing beyond whatever they are would be able to generate offline. And apart from that, the online exposure that we are able to provide to these temples, right, is also something I think the temples value a lot. So I think with these two pitch, like, these two things that we are trying to bring them out of the box, a lot of these temples right now being convinced. I think every single passing day, I see even more, temples, you know, who start finding value in our platform. We are actually willing to get onboarded onto our platform itself.

Dhruv Sharma: And staying with that marketplace sort of liquidity question, Surjeet, I'm I'm wondering, like, there are certain regional temples that are popular in the region, and there are certain temples that have the kind of spiritual significance where people will make incredibly long journeys to to go there. Right.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): So as

Dhruv Sharma: you as you start, you know, raking up more supply, how are you gonna, you know, also rake up, like, a mention rate demand?

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Got it. So I think as I think even as Utsav probably mentioned. Right? So demand, I don't believe, is was is ever going to be a challenge for us. Right? It's probably always going to be a matter of how do we, you know, align the supply in order to fulfill the demand that we'll be having. Right? A couple of quick examples. For example, we are working with the Rahu Temple, which is situated on top of a hill in Uttarakhand. Right? It's a district called Paithani. Right? I don't believe any of us, maybe even the audience, nobody would have heard about it. But that temple, once it landed onto our platform, we started working with that. The temple and the entire village nearby and entire ecosystem, we have been able to develop working with the temple with all the villagers, you know, the the initially, the graduates of that particular village who always had to leave, maybe go to Delhi, Chandigarh, Jaipur, all of the cities. Now they are being able to reside back in their village, work with us, earn a meaningful lifestyle, you know, job for themselves, and they are able to make a good life for themselves as well. Right? So temples like this, I think, is something that we are able to try to curate on our platform. The mythological significance and the historic facts that the temple also brings in. On our platform, we try to capture that in the complete narrative. Right? So anybody who is visiting our platform, and let's say they're checking out a particular temple, we usually like to give them the whole details, like, how the bad does its temple find its mention in? How how how does the mythological significance of this temple look like? And why should anybody be, you know, inclined to offer a puja at this temple? What value it might just bring for them? Right? So significance about the deity, significance about the temple, how long does it go back in the past? What are the scriptures where this particular temple finds its mentions. So we try to mention all of these things. So I think right now, probably the audiences of this podcast, right, who had not heard about this one temple, on our platform, you can find such 80 other temples right to whom you will probably be able to explore for the first time.

Utsav Somani: And in a low trust country like India, I mean, people are expecting their proof very, very soon. Right? So how do you engineer that and ensure that you meet customer timelines and expectations?

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Right. I think, this has been a very critical part for us. So it's obviously we are working, let's say, in a domain which is completely driven by faith and trust. So it's, like, literally faith and trust. Right? Nothing else. Now when we talk about this, operations and customer satisfaction are two very important thing that we measure. And, obviously, both of them go hand in hand. Right? So in terms of operation, let's say if there is a puja that's been conducted at a particular temple, we have set up our ground rules, operations in collaboration with the temple. Well, let's say any puja that is happening. So we usually schedule the pujas. This is a particular on a particular this is the Hindu panchang. Once this puja has been scheduled and let's say there are, 500 people who have requested for participation in that puja during that particular. So the temple and the priest and all the people involved in that temple, right, they perform the entire ritual. The thing gets captured in video. Right? Across all of these temples, we are not enabled, live streaming right now. There are some technical challenges, infrastructural challenges for, you know, streaming things online at this point. But we record this whole thing within the next

Utsav Somani: can give you some advice for live streaming this also.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Yeah. Sure. Sure. We'd love to have that. But I think, so we, right now, record that whole thing. And within the next twenty four to forty eight hours, we share that entire video recording with all the customers including a dedicated time stamp for when so let's say if Utsav Somani happens to be one of the, you know, devotees in that particular session of pujan. So you would be receiving maybe a video which is, let's say, 4.5 long. Right? But in that particular video, the place where your name, your gotra, maybe your family details have been chanted as a sankalp during that session, we would give you a time stamp for that as well. So you get to see the whole puja. We also in that puja. Right? We ask that piece and the temple to give an explainer. Give, what is happening? How are the different things important? Why do we need to contact each of this particular, you know, segments of that puja? And along with that, the place where your sankal will be is being taken, we give you a time stamp for that as well. So you would find a dedicated button on this, you know, landing page, which says, like, you know, listen to your sample. You just click on that. You are skipped to a particular time stamp, and we want you to go and, you know, watch and hear both your name and go to the enchanted. I think when this is happening, right, the personalization effect when the customer is able to actually feel it, that's when, you know, we it's like a make or break situation for them. So if the customer don't actually see and hear that this is actually true, then the customer becomes happy. And if the customer gets happy, he gives us a good rating and that customer again, you know, eventually keeps coming back and starts making multiple other transactions.

Dhruv Sharma: So, Sourajit, I'm wondering, like, when, say, Lenskart started, I mean, people also had to test their eyes, and so they built out that infrastructure. And similarly, for people who deliver medicines at home, they figured that most of the drugs are are prescription drugs anyway. You sometimes have people who know they have to do something important but also need guidance and need, you know, a priest to work on the g to recommend something to them. Is it something you help devotees with at this time?

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Right. I think right now, we are not particularly in a space where we're giving them any kind of consultation per se. But at the same time, on our platform, as I said, you would find enough amount of details for you to maybe make a healthy call at your own end. Luckily for us, I think many of these problems or many of the rituals that they need to perform has been carried over to them by their ancestors, and it has been happening since generations. Right? So most Indian families, let's say, would have their grandparents, you know, grandma, grandfather, maybe even a family pundit or maybe even a family astrologer, Right? Would be guiding them to do multiple kind of things. But then one of the most popular use case on our platform is like a, you know, a Sade Sati. I don't know if you guys have heard about it. It's like a seven and a half year long phenomenon, you know, that people have, which is having the, let's say, influence of Shani in their Kundling. Right? When that happens and, again, this is not something that I am having to educate them about. People are already aware about this. And because they're already aware, they have been looking for a solution. Right? And once they come on top platform, find out that, okay, there is a ready made solution, which I can get done remotely without me having to travel over hundreds of kilometers and, you know, having to spend a certain amount of time every week or every month, they just feel delighted. Okay. Maybe if it currently, it's not the as it's not the same as actually visiting a temple, but this is the best alternative that I can have for me right now.

Utsav Somani: And, in our country, I mean, talking about concerts, like, does fear sell better than hope and devotion? Because, I mean, one of the astrology companies is a unicorn, but there's devotion. May zero companies which have reached that milestone yet?

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): I think, again, I'm not gonna comment about others. Right? But, probably, I would just want to, you know, limit myself to our understanding. I think, definitely, people look at, you know, devotion or maybe they reach out to God for both aspects. Right? So I think we have seen people who'd been writing again, there are people who can come and just write something where they want to convey to the priest when the Buddha is happening. So there are people who just, you know, select something or write something to the as a secret message to their pandits. Right? So they would write, you know, maybe, you know, just make sure that my parents are always in the pink of their health. Right? Make sure that my family is always living a good life. And there are also people who may be facing some problems in their life. Maybe there's some economic challenges, some challenges in their relationship, things like that, for which they want to offer a closure. Right? So both the cases both the kinds of customers we have seen, but I would I have, like, in a general basis, I would like to believe it's more people who are looking for God and his or her placings for to ensure that whatever they're having in their life and how would they proceed in their life, everything to be, you know, very good for them in the coming future.

Dhruv Sharma: So, Sourajit, I have a user experience related question, which is and obviously, the best thing is for you to actually be able to travel to a place of worship and receive blessings. But how are you and your engineers and your designers building the app in such a way that users are convinced that the Utsav app is the next best way to get the same blessings.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): You know, I think what you exactly pointed on, I agree with you probably at 200% on that. Visiting a temple has got no alternative. Right? I don't think we can ever be a replacement for that or even intend to be a replacement for that. Right? So it's a best case scenario. The second best case scenario is Utsav for you. Right? That's the that's the thing. That's always our pitch to every customer. Right? Now when we talk about that, as I said, trust is the most important thing. A product in this category is probably being used by the customers for the first time in their life. Right? For many of them. Right? Many of them are just unaware that something like this can also be possible. Right? When they find out they're pleasantly delighted, but the pleasant delight needs to need take some time for them to build once only once they're able to actually see some proof that, okay. Whatever I am doing is being, you know, driven by some proof. I'm receiving a video of that whole thing. For example, and after the pooja is conducted, we also send them a prasad box if that's, like, a part of the package of the temple. So this is how it would usually look like. Right? So this is something that we share with the temples, the temples packet inside this box. Then we provide them with logistical support as well to actually get back to them. When we talk about, how do we build this trust, so I think it's like multiple touch points that we have tried to develop. For example, couple of quick things. So when the video is being shared with the customer, we ask the priest of the temple to come in front of the camera and actually, you know, give them all the details. Where is the temple located? Who what is his own name? What is his background? How long he has been a pujari at that temple? Right? What is the significance of that temple? And then he would also go on to say the date and the time on which the puja is being conducted. So the tithi is you know, the muhurat is very important for conducting ceremonies like this. So all the details are given out on the video by the Panditji himself. And then as the puja keeps on going, as I said, the Panditji keeps explaining what are the individual segments meant for and how are they relevant for anybody who is participating in that puja. When you receive the video, you would receive all of these details marked out particularly. As I said, one more thing, special feature is that listen to your Sankal. You click on that, you also get to listen to your entire thing. And I think the rest of the things is the Prashad delivery. So for example, this Prashad that gets delivered to this customer. Right? So we ensure that on the app and on the website, they have a tracking page where they can see who is the one who is, you know, actually shipping this Prashad, where is this Prashad being picked up from, and where is this Prashad being delivered to. The customer, when they receive this package, they can just scan the QR code at the back of this at the back of this, you know, package and see where was this actually picked up from, who was the one who handed it over this box to whoever, you know, whatever the courier partner was. And thereby, the customer can actually go back and try to verify that whether this is actually happening at the temple wherein I had opted for the pooja, and actually Panditji is on doing all of these things for me.

Utsav Somani: Alright, Sourajit. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Wishing you and Utsav all the best.

Sourajit Basu (Utsav): Thank you so much, man.

Dhruv Sharma: Bye bye. Thank you.

Utsav Somani: Alright, listeners. That's it from us. We'll see you for stream one three three on Wednesday. That's when we start our year two journey. Thank you so much for tuning in. Bye bye.