Full Transcript

Dhruv Sharma: Hey there listeners, today is February 20th, it's day 5 of the AI Summit, which is the AI Impact Summit, which has been happening in Delhi and has created a lot of excitement around it. Our first and only guest for the show today is here with us already. His name is Sumit Roy, he's founded a company called Sixth Sense Mobility and we're going to welcome him just now. Hey Sumit.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Hey Andrew. What's up? Good to have you with us Sumit. Thank you so much for having me. How's it going? Do you want to explain to our listeners what Sixth Sense Mobility does? Sure. So Sixth Sense Mobility is an automotive tech company. We are a full stack automotive technology company that designs and delivers a complete product from end to end, right from conceptualization of the technology to designing the embedded hardware, the firmware, eventually the platform software that the user is going to interact with and then eventually manufacturing the full product and delivering it to the customer. So we are what you would call a tier one supplier in the automotive industry.

Utsav Somani: So that's what it is. The choice to do hardware, software, firmware, everything at once, like typically founders pick one battle and go deep into it. Is there a specific characteristic of your industry or your offering that requires you to go full stack?

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: No, actually, I think we'd be one of the very few guys, I'm not very sure if there are many other players who are full stack in this industry. It typically follows a tiered structure, so tier one, tier two, tier three structure. We are a full stack company and there are a couple of conscious reasons behind which why we went full stack. Primarily, it is to control the entire value chain of the technology and the quality of the product. Secondly, the automotive industry has been going through a paradigm and a tectonic shift. So technology has been updating, technology has been going live, you know, every day. Something new has been offered by automotive manufacturers almost every year and the typical turnaround time for a legacy tier one supplier for offering a new product was about three to five years. We've managed to cut it down to less than 12 months. In less than 12 months, we can, you know, conceptualize the technology and deliver it end to end.

Dhruv Sharma: Can you give us a sense of what the products are, what they look like and who are the OEMs you're selling them to?

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: So the first product that we started off with was, it was a passion project, honestly. So we started off with the telemetry communication unit. So back in 2017, when I graduated from college, I was very clear that, so I'm a gear head, I'm a motor head. So I decided I had to get into cars, did not have enough money to.

Utsav Somani: You started selling used cars, right?

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Yeah. I started selling used cars and I'm a computer science engineer. So I convinced my parents that, listen, I'm going to, you know, not sit down for placements. I'm going to start my own thing and I want to get into automotives. And the only way I knew how to was either become a mechanic or I, you know, start dealing used car.

Dhruv Sharma: So the first choice was very not acceptable socially.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Yeah, absolutely. You spend a bomb on engineering and then you become a mechanic. Oh my God. A middle class Indian family just can't take that shock. So yeah.

Dhruv Sharma: Which is ironic because most mechanics know more than engineers do, but well, it is what it is.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: That's one of the reasons why I did choose computer science engineering because the four year automotive curriculum in colleges, I mean, they're still teaching, you know, carburetor based engines and MPFI has been there for 20 years. I mean, there's no mention of new technology.

Dhruv Sharma: So we want to bring you back to the product you were saying, and then we got carried away. So telemetry. I'm sorry.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Yeah. So telemetry communication unit is one of the products. It is, it is what you would call the backbone of the connected vehicle technology. It is a piece of hardware that plugs into, it is an ion based technology, so it plugs into the vehicle. It could be a retrofit. It could be a manufacturer based offering. And once that is plugged into the vehicle, it does many things. So from, you know, tracking your vehicle to running diagnostics, to running predictive diagnostics, to running an emergency SOS based system and collecting information. So all of that connected.

Dhruv Sharma: I would imagine for high end cars, this comes pre installed. And then of course you can, if it doesn't, then you can even get it installed in the aftermarket.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Eventually, eventually the, you know, government is going to mandate this across through and through. There's already a commercial vehicle mandate. So it's called an AIS 140 mandate. And all commercial vehicles are mandated to have a vehicle location tracker. And since the, you know, global supply for location tracking devices is primarily controlled by China and India is not really comfortable with, you know, having foreign products, sharing sensitive locations. So India decided to build on its own. So that's why the INSS satellite and NAVIC satellite. So we've built the product completely inhouse developed in the entire technology from ground up from hardware, firmware, software, all of that. And that was the first product. But then eventually we started going deeper into the technology with OEMs. And now we've got about seven to eight products on our, you know, ecosystem, which communicate with each other. One of them is body control module, controls the entire, you know, range of functionalities for your vehicle. There is the digital cluster system, there's IVI system, that's your in-vehicle infotainment, which also runs the ADAS, mostly passenger cars here. No, no, no. As a matter of fact, my biggest customers are commercial vehicle, CVs, and we're just entering into commercial cars as well with one of the largest OEMs in the country. But I wouldn't name them right now, but yeah, we'll be entering the market soon.

Utsav Somani: And in terms of, I mean, tell us about the raise as well. You've raised 44 crores from the Big Bull. How was that experience? How did you make that connection happen?

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Honestly, that was a fantastic experience. I mean, it was better than I could have imagined. It was very smooth. Ashish is an amazing guy. I got introduced to Ashish from our current investors at Piper Serica.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: And, you know, typically you'd imagine the startup going to the investor, pitching their stuff and doing all of the, you know, heavy lifting. But in this case, Ashish decided to come down with his entire team, you know, spend an entire day with us, just observing us at work. That was it. He came to Saket, the Delhi office, and he observed us at work, then went to the manufacturing unit at Okla, observed there, spoke to a couple of our guys, and that's how we built the entire conviction. And it closed probably over lunch. That's how we closed the deal. So absolutely fantastic guy, true believer in technology and making India, you know, a technology country. So thanks, thanks to Ashish, we managed to, you know, raise 4.9 billion dollars so quickly.

Dhruv Sharma: And when did you become a tier one supplier? I'd imagine that's not an easy journey. It doesn't happen all that quickly either, especially if you're setting to like high end OEMs. Yeah.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Yeah. So that's definitely not easy and not a lot of companies do get the opportunity to become a tier one supplier to some of the bluest of the blue chip companies in the automotive industry. And I must, must thank my partners, my colleagues, my team to have been able to pull this through. We've, we've got an amazing team and it's just nothing short of, you know, absolute sheer grit and hard work that we were able to pull this through. And not just once, but repeatedly over multiple OEMs. And I think today we, our product goes into almost all automotive sectors. So be it two wheelers, three wheelers, four wheelers, trucks, tractors.

Utsav Somani: Tell us a little bit about the scale of the business as well, since you're supplying to so many industries and names like Sonalica tractors and others as well. Give us a sense of the numbers in the state of the business right now.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: So, so far we've already manufactured and supplied about 30, 30, I mean, as we speak, I think we're clocking on to 35,000 devices. And over the next 18 months, we've got about 160 crores of worth of order book that we have to fulfill. And I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy scale that we are talking about. I mean, five years back, I wouldn't have imagined that we'd raise this much or, you know, reach this point. But yeah, so about 30 to 35,000 devices have already been deployed and another, you know, 200,000 devices are going to be deployed over the next 18 months.

Utsav Somani: And is this because some of the ECMS outlay, like explain what ECMS mandate is that the government has just doubled to 40,000 crores.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: So the ECMS isn't really a mandate. It's, it's a, it's a push to an industry. OEMs don't really have that mandate and OEM don't really care about it. It's just the government is trying to push manufacturing of electronics product in India. However, our industry doesn't really have anything to do with it. But at the same time, we will definitely be, you know, residents of some government initiatives. The government has opened up grants, the government has opened up, you know, land parcels to be acquired for much cheaper in case you're building an ECMS factory. So those kind of things. But no, honestly, the automotive OEMs are a stickler for quality and product and getting them to, you know, pick or change their customers or vendors is very difficult. So they don't really care if you're manufacturing in India or US or Germany. As long as the product is of top notch quality and you can meet their standards, you can become a supplier to them.

Utsav Somani: And vehicle, vehicle, V2V?

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: That's, that's, that's, that's something that we've been building for a while. It's a, it's a long, long journey over, you know, to V2V. The actual architecture is called V2X, vehicle to everything. And one of the sub parts of that is vehicle to vehicle. And we are, I think we've successfully demonstrated the technology to some of our partner OEMs and they're very impressed. And it is a technology that you can soon expect to be on Indian roads over the next couple of years. And the government is actually gearing heavily to introduce vehicle to vehicle technology communication to reduce the road accidents and other fatalities because of this.

Dhruv Sharma: Dhruv, any final closing question? Yes, I do have one, which is Sumit. So if again, we take a step back and look at your category as a whole and across the board, which is passenger vehicles, commercial vehicles, you know, the farm setter, tractors and so on, even excavators. At least I don't know of many startups that have gotten into these value chains. I'd love to learn from you.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: I know one.

Dhruv Sharma: At least I know one. Look, I mean, to be fair, there are others also, but they're doing things around, you know, used car sales or something. And on the aftermarket, I know of one company that was like a marketplace with tires and so on. But again, they're not tier one suppliers necessarily. They're not in the value chain. So part one is, why is that? Why is it hard? Why are the incumbents so entrenched and what's it going to take to displace them and somehow get in? And what are some opportunities you guys are going after yourselves? What are some opportunities you may never go after? And so maybe they're ripe for other people to take up.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: All right. So the first part of your question, why is it so difficult and why are the giants so difficult to displace? That's because they're absolutely massive in size.

Dhruv Sharma: I know there are some suppliers who are larger than the OEMs, by the way.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Yeah, there are suppliers in India which are, who are larger than the OEMs. I mean, take Bosch, Motherson, JBM, all of these guys. I mean, these are, I mean, their market cap is what? 1 lakh crores, 1.5 lakh crores, maybe 2 lakh crores.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: And that's not...

Dhruv Sharma: So large entrenched incumbents, but what about like, I mean, you know, in terms of innovation, new things that are coming in, are they falling behind in certain, in certain respects?

Utsav Somani: So, I think it's a very, I think, I mean, somewhat the industry is driven by nepotism as well, right? I mean, like all the big suppliers to Hero Honda are probably relatives of theirs as well. Like, I don't know if that's a great example to make. It is, right?

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: I didn't want to say that, but yeah, it's true. And it's, there is nepotism in this industry, but at the same time, there is sheer hard work and merit to all of these guys who've reached wherever they have. And I wouldn't disregard their, you know, hard work because I've been building something like similar myself. I am, I am hoping to get as big as them and I can see what it entails in all of that. But coming back to the question is, yes, there is a technology shift. And as you can see, you know, in a massive organization, things take time. And all of these guys, the industry has moved from mechanical machines to computers on wheels. And that transition isn't really easy for anybody. I mean, look at Motherson, how it started. It started with wiring harnesses and then they acquired different technologies. They acquired different companies and, and become, became a massive conglomerate. Look at Anand Group, same story over and over again. And that's what happens when the technology becomes faster than the company and the, and you sleep every day and there's new technology coming out in the market. It becomes very difficult to keep pace if that's not in your entire DNA.

Utsav Somani: Dude, that's what we're feeling about AI these days.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Yeah, that's what we're feeling about AI these days.

Dhruv Sharma: There's a new model. You guys remember that time when President Trump looked inside of a test line and went everything's computer. Absolutely.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: So yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons. And having the DNA right is very important. So we, on the other hand, we've, we have a tech first DNA. 80% of my staff is engineering staff and we are very, very selective about who we hire here at Sixth Sense. Probably one of the very few guys who, who's got the skills to flash an ECM over the air. That's something that OEMs haven't even heard of. So things, things like that. I mean, we really look out for the talent that we hire and that's why we are able to deliver that most other startups haven't been able to deliver. And yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why we have been able to enter this market and make a mark for ourselves.

Utsav Somani: Awesome. What does the order book look like to close this out?

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Oh, wow. I mean, we, we had 160 crore plus order for the next 18 months and I think it's adding on as we speak, we are adding new clients and we are building on new portfolio products as we speak. So I mean, this, this 160 crore was with the, you know, current products and we've got more products coming up. So I think we could look at 200 plus over the next 18 to 24 months.

Utsav Somani: Solid. Sumit, thank you so much. All the very best. Thank you for joining us.

Sumit Roy - Founder, Six Sense Mobility: Thank you Dhruv for having me. It was a pleasure to talk to you guys and awesome show. Amazing. Thanks guys.

Dhruv Sharma: May you manufacture your way to greatness.

Utsav Somani: Let's, let's hope for. Thank you. All right, Dhruv, I think we have to talk about the Davos of AI that just finished. I think you introduced the show today by talking about it as well. The India AI week. Everyone was on stage. Altman, Pichai, Dario. And I think some of the biggest story was about Galkotia University using a Chinese dog, mechanical dog to portray themselves as a leading center of manufacturing. And, and the biggest story, which was yesterday was that Modi, when he was doing that unity thing, I think Sam and Dario happened to be next to each other. So I think it's truly war. I think that's the story to take away from that.

Dhruv Sharma: But let's say if, if I were Dario, what I would have done is Pratyush was on his left, like the Sarvam founder. All he had to do is instead of winning that awkward, whatever they did was just bring Pratyush into, you know, into the middle. That way everyone would have held hands and it wouldn't have looked.

Utsav Somani: I think it's literally everyone is competing with each other. Like, I mean, Sundar Pichai was nice. I think, who was he standing next to?

Dhruv Sharma: Andrew Wang. Who had a lot of, I mean, he was, yeah. But I mean, so it's funny. The summit happens, so many things dropped and most people are talking about the handshake and that goddamn dog.

Utsav Somani: All right. So let's run down the most important things for our listeners. So there was some big numbers, 200 billion almost committed across Infra, Adani and Reliance leading the pledges. Adani pledges 100 billion for a renewal-powered data center by 2035. And Reliance has committed 110 billion as well. Ambani was on stage with Modi. Google also topped up with 15 billion in Vizag. How much of this 200 billion actually converts to ground-level deployments? What's your take on that?

Dhruv Sharma: I hope most of it does. Of course, it's going to happen over a very long period of time. I think the most interesting thing about this is that it's like almost green power straight into the GPUs because that's important. You know, we are resource constrained as a country. And yet we can't afford to sit this out. We can't be like, you know, we are resource constrained. And so let somebody else, you know, have their own data centers, et cetera. We can't afford to. And so that's the key piece. In other words, you know, chips were the constraint a couple of years ago. Now power, energy is the constraint. And it will take Infra giants like them to come in. And of course, they're not going to pour in $100 billion from just their balance sheets. They will partner and syndicate a lot of this capital, both as equity and debt with the largest financial institutions around the world, both Indian and global.

Utsav Somani: And we've seen some of that, right? Blackstone partnering with NASA, they put in $600 million in equity. And I think $600 million has to be topped up via debt as well.

Dhruv Sharma: Yeah. You know how people used to say that McDonald's is actually a real estate, but it's not a burger company. It's a real estate company. People say that about data centers too. It's a realistic business at the end of the day. Makes sense for Blackstone to partner up.

Utsav Somani: So India AI Mission 2.0 also got a brief mention as well. They're trying to add a whole bunch of different GPUs. Right now, I think they've got 34,000 GPUs. And imagine training all of this. And Sarvam, like we'll talk about Sarvam in a bit as well. But NASA will add another 20,000 GPUs via the $600 million raise that Blackstone did. So I think all in all, I think pretty exciting on what's getting built up.

Dhruv Sharma: And this is so important. And we were just chatting about this, right? Like right now, these clusters, nobody has exclusive access to them. So think of it this way. So like, you know, when we were in school, maybe some of us were privileged enough to go to a school which had a computer lab and you had exclusive access and you learned whatever you learned. There are lots of people who would actually go to cyber cafes and, you know, rent computers for brief years and learn it that way. And so Sarvam...

Utsav Somani: Basically, you're using shared cloud resources.

Dhruv Sharma: Yeah, it's shared resources.

Dhruv Sharma: And if you can come this far with just that.

Utsav Somani: It's fascinating. But I mean, what this whole... I mean, just zooming out a little bit, I think what this India AI Week did, like I think what Shark Tank did for the startup ecosystem where it became commonplace to talk about startup, discuss things at your dinner table with your grandparents and across age groups, right? It cut through that thing very easily. So I think what the India AI Week did, I was at a coffee shop yesterday and there was an old couple sitting next to us. I don't think they're too technology friendly, but I mean, the conversation I could hear a little bit of it, where they said that, have you used chat GPT? And then the other person, the lady on the table was explaining to the gentleman there that, hey, I've used chat GPT for XYZ purpose. And I think all of this now, I think becomes a conversation that people will have with each other just because of this AI Week. So I think it's... I mean, forget all the headline numbers. I think what it does is just brings AI to a conversation table. And I think that really matters for people who are learning about this new technology and this massive platform shift. Of course, we talk about this in our own bubble of this show and the startup ecosystem and everything that goes on around us. But when regular people start discovering technology, I think that's when true diffusion of AI will truly happen in this country.

Dhruv Sharma: And diffusion is the most important thing here because, you know, with our population and you know, we have to find like end user applications in healthcare and education where it truly matters and not just, you know, making funny looking monkey pictures or whatever people were doing in the early days of AI.

Utsav Somani: Everything starts out as a toy. So I think it had to start off like that just to get the mind space that it needs. But I think it's fascinating. But let's talk about some of the fascinating stuff that we saw at this and also focus on Sarvam a little bit. So Sarvam teased their AI glasses, which is coming out in May. They're going to focus on enterprise, less on consumer. But they've also announced India's first sovereign AI foundational models, a 30 billion parameter model and a 105 billion parameter model and trained from scratch on Indian data. They can do and support a whole bunch of Indic languages as well. And why this is fascinating is that DeepSeek is the China foundational model, which is open source as well, had a 600 billion parameter model last year. And this 105 billion parameter model is almost as good as that. So and truly built under constraints, just 15 engineers, 4000 GPUs given the India compute scarcity. So huge support from India AI mission. But I mean, just goes to show that how frugal these guys were. 53 million raised compared to, say, even OpenAI's recent raise, which will be therefore heavily optimized.

Dhruv Sharma: I think even at the level of optimization that they've done and they've used, in fact, a methodology that's existed for the longest time. It's called MOI, but like mixture of exports. Think of it as, you know, if you need an answer out of an encyclopedia, when you ask the encyclopedia a question, so to speak, it doesn't search cover to cover. It's almost like if you ask a question on cricket, then the section on cricket opens and the search is restricted to just that. So that's an example of how they've optimized. And so even the 105 billion parameter model, I think it was trained on some 15 trillion tokens. And trillion might seem like a large number, but keep in mind that the human brain has 500 trillion synapses. And so that's almost like, you know, you read a million books a thousand times over and that's how well you understand the material and you're therefore able to generate an output. And they did 14 days of daily drops.

Utsav Somani: Yeah, 14 days of daily drops. And if you go to the Servome AI website, there's this model that you can talk to. It's an agent, a voice agent, conversational agent for, I don't know, booking a service at a hospital. It's just fascinating. Like, so anyone who's listening to this, just go to Servome.ai, try out their voice model. It's just fascinating, that technology.

Dhruv Sharma: And voice is so important because it's the dominant modality. I mean, you and I might text into our phones. Most people don't. They're going to speak into their phones. And these guys, they've even partnered with Nokia, I believe, on a hardware device.

Utsav Somani: So they're going to do this low cost device, like a smartphone, which is, I think, super cheap. And some 350 MB model for that, which supports 110 language pairs across 10 Indic languages and English. So I think it's fascinating because India suffers from, of course, low connectivity, lack of resources, and many other things. So building this on-device model for inference, local inference, I think is solid.

Dhruv Sharma: I mean, runtime inference is super computer intensive. We just, we simply can't afford it. And so imagine an 8,000 rupee, a good old Nokia feature phone with an AI button. You push it. You talk to it. It gives you a response. What more do you want?

Utsav Somani: Go to your universities. We've already covered this. The media has had a field day with it. Apparently, it was a 2.5 flag Unitary Go 2 robot from China, which is available in the open market. And they displayed it as a robotic dog, claiming that it was built at their center.

Dhruv Sharma: They take it to a dog show. What's the point of this?

Utsav Somani: And the university, I mean, their booth's power was cut and they were asked to leave. Like, it's just hilarious. I think all the time.

Dhruv Sharma: I feel bad for the students who go to honestly, because they're going to have to live under the stigma for at least a while.

Utsav Somani: Our news moves fast these days. I think people will forget it. I think depending on what happens over the weekend, I think people will be moving on to the next big thing. But I think Vishal Khosla, Vinod Khosla of Sun Microsystems and now Khosla Ventures made a bold claim. By 2030, there'll be no IT services, no BPO in India. So in the next four or five years, I think we're expecting the 250 million young population of India to stop training for these service jobs and see how they can upskill themselves. I think it's going to be a big, big shift, given that India has typically been a back office provider to most of these global players or white collar jobs in early IT services. So I think it will be something to see.

Dhruv Sharma: It is hard to disagree with Vinod Khosla in general, but that might be overstated a little bit. Like, I mean, you know, some service jobs, sure, they'll evaporate like, you know, the drop of a hat. But, you know, when once we had Priyanka on the show and we were talking about how banking systems still like operate. Legacy. Exactly. Mainframe systems. So I don't think AI agents will write COBOL code that well. And so maybe it's not five, maybe it's 15, but it is a writing on the wall unless people really reskill and reinvent.

Utsav Somani: OpenAI had their event yesterday and they announced a partnership with Tata Consulting Services as well. So OpenAI is making big moves. They're opening new offices in Bangalore and Bombay as well. So I think they're going to focus heavily on India. They've got 100 million users because of that free CharityBD Go plan that they've done. So I think anthropic opening in Bangalore, OpenAI office across all three major cities.

Dhruv Sharma: Sam's media tours go a little off script whenever he's in India. Last time there was that question that Rajan asked him and he gave a very, you know, he gave a standoffish answer and this time the hand raising incident.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. So this time he said that India is no longer hopeless on AI and he commanded the work that I think Sarvam's done. I think all the attendees did. So it's impressive that things are turning around. But let's talk a little bit about another Indian AI company that said and announced 100 million ARR in just eight months, Emergent Labs.

Dhruv Sharma: Emergent Labs. Absolutely. That's India for the world story.

Utsav Somani: India for the world story and they've done exceptionally well. I think they've got 6 million users across 190 plus countries who built 7 million apps. They've got 150K paying customers, a 2.5% conversion rate and 40% are small businesses. People who probably don't want to pay for a dev shop which will take 10-15 lakhs to build an app like CRM, CRP is inventory tools and they can now just self do it. And they've raised 70 billion recently in January led by Coastline SoftBank Vision Fund too. SoftBank's not been that active. So it's exciting to see that they've backed the company in India after a while. And our Kushner family is busy as well. Apart from all the world politics, Josh Kushner, who is brother to Jared Kushner, has closed a $10 billion fund. His first fund was just 5 million and they've the Thrive X, which is Thrive 10 at 10 billion. So it literally goes hand in hand with their name as well. They've got and it's one of the very rare few funds that has not taken positions across multiple LLMs or foundational labs. They are solo on OpenAI, which I think shows you the kind of conviction that they have and how they are like deep in that.

Dhruv Sharma: Josh is one woman, one LLM man. I think he said something.

Utsav Somani: That's a joke that's going on in X. But they're, I mean, they've doubled literally every two years. 1 billion in 2018, 2 billion in 2021, 3 billion in 2022 and now 10 billion at 2026 after 5 billion in 2024. So, I mean, 23 billion in assets under management. I think it's just fascinating what he's done.

Dhruv Sharma: Tell us, who are some of the other folks like Thrive that people don't always know about? Maybe, I don't know, Greenox inside?

Utsav Somani: Greenox is definitely one. I think there are a few others like I think Benchmark also, we don't know that much in India, but I think globally they've done well. And we're going to talk about Benchmark because Sam Altman's brother has joined Benchmark. He was doing this awesome podcast where he's talking to all founders, investors and just getting into the world of investing. He's raised two funds before Alt Capital after his company Lattice. And first fund was 150 million, 275 for Fund 2 in September 25, so less than a year back. And he's now joined Benchmark as an equal GP, equal partner. So, I think fascinating.

Dhruv Sharma: He's apparently bringing his team with him.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. And Apple's getting into the world of AI wearables. I think this is TBD in terms of this thing. These are all rumors, but I think it'll be fascinating to see just because Apple ecosystem always ends up making noise just for the shared distribution power that they have.

Dhruv Sharma: So, if you have cameras in your airports or you have smart glasses or ear pendants and all of these things, I think it'll be exciting to see what they bring to the market because I could be getting this wrong, but I read somewhere that the airport's revenue line is the same as Anthropic right now across like the family of products.

Utsav Somani: And everyone wrote off Apple from this whole AI wave and Mac minis are literally cashing in. Mac minis are sold out for the next one or two months actually just because everyone's running and buying their own Mac minis to run their cloud ports as well.

Dhruv Sharma: A couple of more breakthroughs in edge computing and like on-device inference and I think they'll be good and we'll see a very new lineup of hardware and hardware is hard to get right and you need the kind of supply chain that they built over decades. So, I mean, maybe, you know, premature to count them out of this race.

Utsav Somani: Awesome. Let's wrap this up and we'll see you on Monday at four o'clock. Bye folks.