Summary

The Offline Network Episode 13: Cross-Border VC (aired 2025-09-29). Guests: Naiyya Saggi, Boris Wertz from EDT, Version One Ventures. Naiyya: "What you sort of see play across the world, and India is no different, is it's largely a process of white labeling products." Naiyya: "But can we reimagine how to use products and use materials that actually have a better, safer for you outcome, but applied in the context of our daily devices?" Topics: venture capital and funding, AI and LLMs, crypto and Web3, consumer brands and D2C. The Offline Network is India's live show on startups, tech, and venture — streaming M/W/F at 4 PM IST on YouTube.

Full Transcript

Dhruv Sharma: Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Hi there listeners, you're tuning into The Offline Network. Today is September 29th. We're streaming live. What's up? What's been happening in the world of tech over the last 72 hours?

Utsav Somani: Yeah, so Anthropic, World of AI, of course, always exciting. Anthropic is coming in to play in the world of enterprises in India, following the footstep of OpenAI, which opened a Delhi office as well. What's exciting is that this is the second Asia outpost for Anthropic. So the first one was Tokyo. They have big offices in London, Dublin and Zurich. And it's a company that's grown pretty rapidly in this world of AI. All the numbers, of course, seem very rational when you compare this world of AI only startups. They've grown to a $5 billion revenue company with 300,000 businesses being served by them. So you might know of OpenAI and Anthropic as companies serving us via their chatbots, but typically they all have a huge enterprise segment to it. What are some of the other numbers around this business that they've built?

Dhruv Sharma: So $5 billion with a B dollar revenue run rate. They also recently raised a round, by the way. They raised a $13 billion round, valuing them at 183 billion posts. That round was run by Iconic. Can you tell us a thing or two about Iconic?

Utsav Somani: Iconic is one of the most fascinating businesses I've come across. I mean, globally, they don't talk much about it. But Devesh, who's the founder, he's an Indian based in SF, he basically started off Iconic by creating this multifamily office. Firstly, they started off with just managing Mark Zuckerberg's money. Then they expanded to Sheryl Sandberg. And now pretty much Huzoo of the tech elite in the SF world works with them. And what they've done apart from this is raised a successful bunch of late stage firms and their investing track record is just insane. And they're able to, I think, get this access primarily because of the client base that they have. And they have offices all over, but their core focus remains tech founders, wealth that has been created through tech and managing that and investing that back in the world of tech. So their funds always watch out whenever they invest in a company.

Dhruv Sharma: Fascinating.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, big moves for India AI mission as well. But the funny thing is Elon Musk, of course, he can't leave any controversy aside for a while, right? I mean, he posted on Twitter that winning was never a possibility for Anthropic. He gave a possibility of 10 to 15 percent, I think, if I'm not mistaken, to open AI as well. Always likes tearing some shit up. But coming back to India.

Dhruv Sharma: Always has a dog in the fight also.

Utsav Somani: The same with Grok AI. With Grok AI. Grok is pretty nice. They've caught up really fast. And I think it'll be fascinating to see because they're pretty, I think, the last entrant to space in the large language model space. Grok was the latest and the last, I think, two years back.

Dhruv Sharma: Yeah. And their data center build out was like, it was stuff of legends. Came together in a matter of just a week.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. Jensen speaks very highly of them as well. All right. So Indian brands. Modern Ayurveda is going global. Kapiva just raised 60 million, where approximately 60 percent of the round was on secondaries, giving an exit to Fireside Ventures, which was one of their early backers as well. But interesting to see Indian brands like Kapiva, Mokubara and many others going global. Badamtees is a big one that got a mention on Oprah show as well. So these Indian brands are now scaling globally and taking the world mission of Ayush, which was Ayurveda, yoga and a few other things global. And I mean, they're challenging the incumbents pretty well as well. Dabur, Patanjali, Himalaya. So Kapiva will have a solid R&D mission behind them to displace them. What's your read in this whole situation?

Dhruv Sharma: It's an interesting category because, I mean, Ayurveda is a solely Indian export. Well, I don't import anything Ayurveda from from the rest of the world. If you do, it's going to be news to me for sure. And it's it's a very competitive landscape as well. If my guess is Dabur and Patanjali lead the pack, but there's always Himalaya, which is also private companies in it. Yeah. Yes. And then there's Kapiva and I think Oziva as well.

Utsav Somani: They've done well-being nutrition also.

Dhruv Sharma: Again, traditional FMCG companies trying to acquire a stake in companies that are carving a niche for themselves. But Kapiva to my mind, I think it's, you know, you can buy their products in 40,000 physical stores. So, of course, there's a made in India for the world story. And by the way, listeners, that's that's something we're going to talk a lot about with our first guest today. We'll be here in just a bit. But so not only is this an make in India for the world story, but also in terms of domestic consumption, great packaging, very clear labeling. And of course, R&D based manufacturing products as well.

Utsav Somani: They're almost at a 550 crore annualized run rate. So fascinating. I mean, of course, these numbers are going to look even more impressive once they capture the U.S. market and many others internationally. But coming back to our shores, ice creams, everyone's favorite. We've just gone through a brutal summer as well in the country. Hoco is an ice cream brand which was started by the Chona family. And it's very fascinating. These husband and wife couple, Ankit and Gayatri Chona, they've launched two different brands. Hoco, which is an ice cream brand, and Fab, which is doing a healthier for you option, something that Arjun Vedia mentioned on our first show as well, that many of these brands which are starting up now, they're not trying to replace habits, but they're trying to just make you healthier or choose the better for you option. And Hoco raised 115 crores at 2000 crore valuation. And what's interesting is that the Chona family was the founder or the promoters of the Havemore ice cream brand, which got sold to a South Korean company. So interesting. And they're targeting 450 crore in annualized revenue run rate by FY26. So going to be exciting. And all of this is powered by QuickCommerce. Have you ordered ice cream from QuickCommerce, Dhruv?

Dhruv Sharma: Of course, I have. I mean, as recently as last evening, by the way, which was unfortunately wasn't this brand. But do you have a favorite? Or have you had a favorite this year?

Utsav Somani: I mean, all of these brands that have appeared on Shark Tank, Go Zero was, I think, one of my favorite ones. They have an element of protein to it. So you don't really feel too bad about indulging in them after a quick dinner. So many of these brands, I think, are exciting from that perspective.

Dhruv Sharma: You know, someone I once spoke with, someone who works in mother dairy. And they told me this really interesting fact, which is in summer months, you actually have a dearth of milk supply, but a surge in milk demand. Because, you know, people need ice creams and lassi and milkshakes and so on and so forth. And so they usually use the winter months where, you know, you have less demand and more milk supply to start creating. And so, you know, the old heritage sort of dairy brands would play according to that sort of supply chain modality.

Utsav Somani: Talking about chit chat, India's version of WhatsApp. I don't know if I'm getting the pronunciation right, but you can correct me. RTI, which has seen 100x traffic spike in the last three days. I don't know what was the trigger for this. But Zoho was in the news recently when our Minister Ashwini said that he's moving away from his Outlook and Google workspace setup to come to Zoho. So I think the call for action by shifting to these Swadeshi products is what triggered this spike as well. Network effects. Do you think this will work? Not work?

Dhruv Sharma: Too soon to say. I mean, it's only been a few days since the official launch. But I do want to tie this back to something.

Utsav Somani: I am live for a while, by the way.

Dhruv Sharma: Oh, it was. So it's only the announcement that is, you know, in fact, that's that's that, in fact, makes sense now because I try to download this app. And I found that, you know, a handful of the people who are in on my contact list are using the app also. And half of those people had been using it for a year. So maybe it was in beta. So I think what you're saying is correct. I also want to tie this to what Anand Chandrasekaran of Crescendo told us in the show earlier today, which is governments all around the world right now are working around making their countries more resilient. And the fact is Zoho is a made in India, dominantly for India, but also for the world kind of software product with full sovereignty of data. And so maybe maybe that's where the push, though, it's going to be hard to displace WhatsApp, right? India pretty much at this point runs on two things, Chai and WhatsApp. And all of us, you know, that that interface is almost like muscle memory at this point. And everyone in your contact list is on WhatsApp anyway. So it's it's a tough uphill climb from here. But hey, what are the odds? What if one find just like hypothetically thinking, what if they said WhatsApp's not going to work in India effective? They announced at 8pm that it's not going to work from 12 midnight.

Utsav Somani: Demonetization of WhatsApp.

Dhruv Sharma: Right. So we will need an alternative and maybe Aratai is going to be that alternative.

Utsav Somani: So funny that you also have trouble pronouncing that name. People on Twitter have brought that up. Like if we have to build global products, I think the name should also be recognizable and pronounced. I mean, easy to pronounce for the global audience as well. So, yeah. But with that, let's welcome our first guest for the show today. Naya, welcome to the show.

Dhruv Sharma: It's great to have you on the show.

Utsav Somani: Thanks. No, thank you so much for coming in and giving us your time. You decided to become a founder again. What what is the new company about? And firstly, do I say EDT or Edition?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): You can say EDT. We are now officially EDT, which stands for Every Design and Technology. And that's really our mission as well.

Utsav Somani: Amazing. What are you doing at the company?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): So what I'm doing right now is basically we're getting ready for our first set of launches. That's more tactical. That's more day to day. But essentially what we are building towards is we're reimagining the daily devices that power our lives. You know, we all are entering a new paradigm where we live in modern homes, have modern routines, have modern sort of preferences in the way like we're understanding a lot about health, wellness. We are understanding a lot about like what what what we value in our lives. Right. What we want to do with our time. And the reality of the situation is that the devices that power our daily chores across home, kitchen, personal care, haven't really kept up with that paradigm, haven't kept up with that narrative. What you sort of see play across the world, and India is no different, is it's largely a process of white labeling products. It's the same mass manufactured products and devices that come into our homes, just with a nice set of new brand on there, shiny sticker, shiny packaging. And when you actually want something that's more design led, something that's more engineering driven, you pay like 5x the price for that, right? Channeling Dyson clearly here. So what we're trying to do is say that, hey, can we democratize really good design, really good technology for everyday living and make that real? So it's a it's a really exciting mission we are all on as a team. And that's what we're building.

Dhruv Sharma: A week ago, you posted something about a 3 a.m. moment that may have led to this. For those who haven't seen that post, can you unpack it for us?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): Sure, Dhruv. So, you know, it's crazy, right? Some of these insights come from moments that you kind of live yourself. And I never thought I'd get into consumer electronics as a category. Like I thought I would be like a BPC slash consumer tech slash consumer AI founder probably going forward in my life. But right after GoodLamb, when I exited, I had a couple of months off. So I spent some time at home. I had my second baby as well at the same time. And 3 a.m. in the morning, I'm pretty much like boiling water to make her formula. And I'm waiting and waiting and waiting. Why? Because the kettle is boiling water to 100 degrees. And I'm waiting for it to cool down to 45 degrees, which is the right temperature to give my baby and mix formula for her. And I'm like, this is 3 a.m. in the morning. I'm wasting my time. My baby's boiling in a corner. Isn't there a better solution? And in that moment, Dhruv, it just pretty much I looked around me and I just looked at everything with a very fresh perspective. Right. Because once you see a problem, you can't unsee it. And that made me look at the other devices in our lives. Right. Right. From literally like air fryers, hair stylers, hair dryers, like the entire work of the daily devices. And we were like, this has not been innovated on in decades. The last big innovation a mainstream consumer appliances brand like a Philips had was an air fryer, which was close to a decade back. There's been very little innovation in the space in this category. So I think that's really what we're looking at. And I think just to unpack it and make it more granular. There's been a lot of like hula about like, you know, IOT and, you know, connected devices, etc. We're just saying, hey, let's just take a step back. There's a lot of stable tech out there and it's a lot of design out there that we can repurpose or reimagine in the daily use cases of things like sensors. Right. Can we like imagine like and reimagine the work that thermal resistors and sensors do to ensure that when you're using one of our products, you have a highly like nourishment packed outcome in your meal or when you're using it in your hair, your hair is less damaged. Right. So can you just reimagine and program existing stable technologies to ensure to give you a better outcome or on design? For instance, so much materials engineering is happening. Right. But can we reimagine how to use products and use materials that actually have a better, safer for you outcome, but applied in the context of our daily devices?

Dhruv Sharma: And speaking of now. So, I mean, let's pull the thread and design a little bit. When you look at objects in our everyday lives, would you agree that bad design complicates our everyday lives and good design simplifies it? And if so, can you share some examples of things in the research phase of launching that you've come across that might be, you know, sort of revelations for us and our listeners?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): Yeah, no, I think great question. So we kind of live and breathe that daily. My co-founder is actually an industrial designer, has been one for the last 25 years of his life, built and launched more than 300 products, appliances in particular across the US, India and China. And however, when we're starting off this company together and the team is also sort of approaching a very fresh lens. So we're learning a lot of our community. We built a community called the Edit, which essentially now has crossed 2000 people. And we literally go and we stay in their homes the whole day. We see how they interact with devices. What are the friction points? We're doing calls with them. I've actually taken my babies along with some of these consumers. I think it's because it breaks a lot of the ice.

Dhruv Sharma: You've got like 2000 design partners. Let's get this straight. 2000 of them. That is impressive.

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): Yeah. And it's incredibly inspiring as well, Dhruv, because we've seen this, there's a lot of like this ethnological sort of survey, this theory that plays out, but you actually see it play out in real life. I'll give you a few examples. Right. To your point. So one is we ask people that what's stopping you from having healthy food every day? Like you could make your juice, etc. Right. You have a juicer. They're like cleaning. Cleaning is the biggest point of friction. And literally, so people have these expensive juicers which are multifunctional from the top brands in the world, but they don't make juice for themselves because cleaning is a pain. Right. Or, for instance, we've asked people that you have this really nice, shiny, you know, like an air fryer. Why aren't you using it? They're like, first of all, you know, it might be shiny, but it looks like a little coffin on my countertop. It's a black device that just sits there and it's quite large. It takes up space. And number two, when I'm cooking in it, I don't really know whether it's actually safer for me because it's made of Teflon or nonstick. Right. So am I actually eating microplastics or am I actually making something safer for my family? So it all comes back to saying that right from like something as simple as like modularizing, cleaning, making a dishwasher friendly, because dishwashers, by the way, are on the rise with some of the TG segments we're talking about. Right. Or just making it easier to use, more modular to use. Right. Down to saying what materials are being used for it. It's just that. I mean, that's where design really plays a role. And I think the third piece is also in terms of democratizing design. Right. So, for instance, what we realized was that there are certain like UIs which are so complicated. We just call this decision fatigue. We put out a post on this today. We realize that you're making probably as a human being 35,000 micro decisions on a daily basis. Right. And we've talked about this ad nauseum on Twitter. Right. You go to a Starbucks and you ask the barista and the barista is like, do you want X, Y, Z, right?

Utsav Somani: Endless options.

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): But that is what our devices are today as well. Full of endless options and so confusing. So something we're really trying to overindex on. I don't know if you get it right in the first photos, but what we're really trying to get right is can my daddy or can my child sit and operate these devices? So we're actually doing consumer testing with kids of the cohort we are sort of testing with as well.

Utsav Somani: Because every device that we buy now comes with a very huge manual like and nobody probably reads it. Right. I think it's easier to see a YouTube video to run it eventually or start it up. But I mean, doubling down on the design thing, IDEO is one of the good ones that's done design really well. Even Johnny Ive on this weekend launched his firm Love From, I think designed this 4,600 euro lantern. And of course, the pricing is a little bit off, but you work with global execs as well to be these tastemakers for your business as well. Right. We see some of them on your socials as well on the website. How is the journey been working with them?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): So it's been a fantastic. You know, the aim with EDT was always to be a global brand and a global company from get go. Right. And this was actually drilled home by one of my amazing advisors, Caitlin, who actually had hardware at OpenAI. She used to lead design at Apple. And even the VR glasses, the first version of them at Meta is what she designed. Right. So hardware and AI is like her jam. And in fact, the vision with EDT as well is not right away, but in future. The belief is that, you know, the physical and the AI worlds are fast colliding in other realms. Right. Can they collide and bring together hyper personalization in the arena of daily devices? Right. In our lives. And to basically build out a life OS, if you will. Right. Can EDT be the life operating system? But Caitlin actually drilled us into VT and I, VT is my co-founder, saying that, Naya, when you're launching your first product, you're talking about this India launch, but you do realize you're doing a global launch. If you were still in the US building from there and launching from there, you as a US founder, as an American founder would never say I'm doing an American launch. You would say I'm doing a global launch. So why is this limiting you? I think that kind of reframed a lot of stuff in my head, not just from like talking about design and product roadmaps, but just the level of quality of outcome, the quality of product, the quality of user experience we are committing to ourselves to build. And in fact, so much so that while it's more expensive, the products that we're building actually are ULNC certified as well. So from get go, I could literally be launching the same products in any market for the most part across the world.

Utsav Somani: And Dyson famously had to do 1000 alterations, if not more, for their first hardware product, which was, I think, the vacuum cleaner. Was that a true story?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): It probably is. But you know how they say that's also lore. Every company has lore and you kind of resonate with that lore. I'm sure EDT will also have its own lore. I mean, I'm sure we'll have a bunch of failed, we already do have a bunch of failed products that exist in the graveyard of my kitchen, you know, in one corner. So I think every company has its lore. Dyson certainly has its lore. But you know, something interesting there, we talk a lot about Qanda. And Dyson is almost synonymous with Qanda, but Dyson did not really invent Qanda. It just marketed it beautifully. So I would say actually more than anything else, two things I really respect about Dyson. Number one, it really has an incredible capacity to build lore around its engineering capability and prowess. And number two, it really has the capability to live it up, to make that promise be met, right? It's just perfection in the way it's designed. So I think when you have sort of lore, marketing meets product, I think that's when magic really happens and you see a global brand like Dyson emerge.

Dhruv Sharma: And Naya, it's not every day that we get to have someone who's known for having, you know, worked at massive scale with Baby Chakra and with Goodglam. And now you're pretty much in the zero to one phase. And as you're sharing with us, you're literally on ground zero right now thinking through this stuff. What's gotten easy as a returning founder? And what never gets easy?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): I think what gets easy as a returning founder is the compounding impact of the work you've done, right? So getting amazing team members to join you or believe in you is much easier than the first time around, fresh off the boat. It's much, much easier. Number two, I think it's easier to also now build a community around this, right? I mentioned 2000 people built over the last two and a half, three months. These are people who are backing us, who are kind of betting on us being something that will add meaning to their lives, right? Just to have that trust, I think is amazing. To have amazing investors back our vision. I think that stuff gets a little bit easier. What doesn't get easy is that every journey is new. Every team dynamic is new. The way you create value for your consumers, right, and truly create value for them. That's a process of learning grounds up. It's an extremely humbling experience. There's no scope for ego. There's no scope for bias. It's literally starting with a very fresh lens. So I think the learning, unlearning process, I think, is never going to get easier. And I think the last piece I do want to say is that India, while we are looking at being a bit of a mass premium play for the Indian market, right? And we have to price in the price we do because of the innovation and the R&D we're doing that kind of backs it up. I think it'll be an interesting journey for us to see how can we do it without like the same rampant discounting that a lot of brands have had to sort of resort to to grow market share. I do derive some comfort from what I see Dyson's journey to be. They've stuck to their gums. But even Apple, for that matter, right? But I think they've also had like decades of brand and lore kind of backing them up. So we'll have to play and walk on that tightrope very carefully. So that's something I do. I do think about a lot.

Utsav Somani: And staying with that thought, like the Indian consumer thought, what have you learned that you've implemented here? Like, how do you segment Indian customers? Who are you targeting? Like, who's your ideal customer profile?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): Yeah, so three principles, right? When we cannot be the classic, right? We don't want to be the nothing to everybody. Like we want to be something to somebody. And therefore, in our initial ICPs are really particular about who we are picking up. And it's not to do with like necessarily geographies or age groups. It's just somebody who basically says that I really do believe that design and technology can play a disproportionate role in my life and can make it better. And I'm willing to be an early adopter for you, an early adopter, early evangelist cohort, right? So that's the first piece. And we are building towards that cohort. And those are folks who might be working out of Koramangala, might be working out of Bandra, might be working out of Pawai, the works at Gurgaon, etc. in certain spaces. So that's the first piece. The second piece is, you know, the distribution really matters. And therefore, where we show up matters a lot and sets the brand right. Right. So we're not looking at doing certain channels that seem like, oh, my God, these are compounding in multiples. Like you need to be on those channels from day zero, because we think that we need to and we know that we need to set the brand right. We need to show up on our own dotcom, on certain marketplaces where there's a values alignment. Right. Because you don't just you don't want to just grow for the sake of growing. So when we show up, we hopefully show up in the right channel. I think the third piece is, I think it's been said ad nauseam, there is definitely a primamization of the Indian consumer. I think it's clear, it's established for all to see across multiple categories. But that said, they're still very value conscious. So you have to justify with education, with technical backing and with a story as to why you are deserving of mindshare and wallet share with them. And you have to earn that right. Like you don't have a right to win. Naturally, you have to earn that right. And I think that is something that we hold as one of our core principles with the Indian consumer.

Dhruv Sharma: Now, how are consumer appliances going to change in the face of AI in your view?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): I am super excited about how they can be hyper personalized. I think that is the bet that we are making for the future. You know, we all may live in family units of one or family units of five or four, as the case may be. But all of us have very, very unique needs. And I think this whole narrative of mass produced appliances, right? I'm the one that looked the same, but also you experience the same. I think that's going to go away. I definitely think there's a space also for voice interaction with appliances that's already playing out. I mean, voice is the primary portal for a lot of AI native devices already in consumer electronics. I don't see why that shouldn't be the case with also just regular consumer appliances. I think the third piece is that as a consumer appliance company, if you're able to be the life OS for that family, for that home, for that individual, you have the opportunity to take some really moonshot bets. You can earn their trust on their daily devices, almost like the Dow use case. You earn their trust on the Dow use cases. And then you use that trust to build something really big. I'll give you an example. Dyson took a bet at cars many years back. They stopped that bet. It was burning money. But if you look at another consumer appliances company, Dreamy, based out of China, they have already launched cars, right? They are essentially a robo vac and mixer grinder and hairdryer company. So eventually in the future, the way I see it is that if EDT can earn the right to be a home and individual life operating system, we can expand the scope to be part of their fabric in very, very differentiated ways in a very large way.

Utsav Somani: And as a closing thought, Naya, before we let you go back to building, you've studied all of these brands. You just mentioned some names from China as well in US. Dyson is Singaporean now, right? I think he's based there.

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): He's Singaporean.

Utsav Somani: He's Singaporean. So what, I mean, you've studied all these playbooks. What doesn't apply to brand building in India from all of these playbooks and what uniquely will you do?

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): I think it boils down to saying that the brand will basically make you convert. It's a lot about on the ground execution. Again, credit where it's due. I spend a lot of time with the Dyson India team and the way they've approached the market, the way they've grabbed GT in India is insane. Dyson is a 40,000 rupee hair dryer product, right? And they are in GT. They are in tier two, tier three. And of course, we know, like having been a consumer founder, you know, the market exists there. But I never for the life of me envisioned that general trade would be a channel for Dyson, right? And then the way they've also thought through that this to build trust, you need kiosks. So you need this like this physical touchpoint, right? So EBOs, kiosks, and then shop and shops, right? I think they've really nailed it on the execution. I think where obviously we have an opportunity and, you know, I think general brands have an opportunity is that can you really also apart from design and the channels contextualization, can you also nail it on the benefit proposition? Just to give you an example, Indian hair is thicker. It's curlier, right? There's a lot of humidity. There's a lot of moisture, right? While a Dyson is made largely for a European or American climate, right? And different hair types, of course, but for a different nuance. So I think there's an opportunity for us to kind of really play with our programming on the PCB as well as the way it interacts with the rest of the device to ensure in the sensors, right? To ensure that you're giving a very different outcome, very differentiated outcome based on the climates you're playing or the customer segments you're playing in. So another example, right? Dyson had launched its vacuums, but they hadn't initially launched a wet vacuum. And India is used to Katka, right? They're used to Jhaadu Pocha. So that nuance was lost on them. So it's these little nuances, which, you know, seem very small in the bigger scheme of things, but actually compound to ensure that you're as contextual as you can get as a brand that's playing for the Indian market.

Utsav Somani: Amazing. Cannot wait to get our first EDT products, Meenthru. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Megha. All the best.

Naiyya Saggi (EDT, BabyChakra, Good Glamm Group): Thanks, man. Thanks, Roh.

Dhruv Sharma: Thank you so much.

Utsav Somani: Awesome. Our next guest, Mr. Boris is dialing in, I think from Europe, but he's based in Canada investing very actively. He's spent a decade investing in mission driven founders, and he's backed many founders and also fund managers in India. So let's welcome him on the show and get ready to ask him what's keeping him excited about investing in India. Boris, welcome.

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Thanks for having me. Great to be on the show. Actually in Italy right now on a European trip. Much better time zone to do this call, this live show, because it would be four o'clock in the morning in Canada on the West Coast right now.

Utsav Somani: All right. So start us off. What's keeping you excited about investing in India?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Yeah, I mean, just a very quick background about myself and Virgin One. I'm a former entrepreneur. I sold my company to Amazon. I started a seed fund called Virgin One Ventures in 2012. I'm currently investing out of a $70 million early stage fund. And as you said, my core thesis is investing in mission driven founders that are early in new categories and big waves. And right now we feel like India is one of these big waves that we get excited about and we want to be part of. And I think in India, to be honest, we started investing very aggressively about two years ago. And I would say like our thesis is around two themes. It's on the one hand, India to India. And so a bunch of really unique business models that we get excited about building for the Indian market. But more recently, we also started to invest in quite a bit of deep tech startups out of India. We feel there's incredible talent coming out of India in that space. And it's obviously an area that is not only interesting in India, but around the world. Everybody talks about robotics and drones and other deep tech startups. So a super interesting space that is rapidly developing in India.

Dhruv Sharma: And Boris, you invest not just in startups, but also in emerging fund managers. That is correct. How is that different, but also how is that similar? And what are some key learnings over the years?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Yeah, so I started investing literally probably seven or eight years ago in my first emerging fund managers. And it was more like a way of giving back and helping other fund managers kind of get their first fund together. And kind of have a first investor believing in what they're trying to build. Over the last two or three years, I've really taken that kind of to the next level. And I have invested in a total of about 25 fund managers now in all different categories. If that is crypto, if that is deep tech, if it's India, I actually have now nine fund managers in India. Listen, there's two things that are very similar. On the one hand side, being in the market, investing yourself makes it a little easier to evaluate other fund managers. Because you can see what opportunities they look at, kind of what their founder taste is, etc. So it really helps you get into that mindset of investing in other fund managers. I think the second thing is also the way they think about big technology waves, interesting opportunities. That's also literally the same thing. What is different is obviously you are not making the decision about investing in a certain opportunity. And you have to get a good taste for how the other fund managers are thinking. You don't always get it right. But it's fun to see young, innovative, hustling fund managers building up their own fund practice. And it has been fun to be part of that.

Utsav Somani: And you've seen founders across multiple geographies, especially USA, Canada and India. What's the difference? I think overall what we've always learned.

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): The way I would think about it is certainly the Bay Area has created the most sophisticated founders. It's the densest ecosystem, it has the strongest network effects. It has obviously the biggest learning opportunities. And so I always think about these founders in the valley as the most sophisticated when it comes to company building, when it comes to fundraising, when it comes to storytelling, etc. So that's kind of for me always the benchmark. Now in secondary, smaller ecosystems, if that is Canadian cities or even like secondary US cities and countries like India. I think what we've seen in the past is just entrepreneurs being perhaps not as smooth around the fundraising, about the storytelling, about the ambition level, what can be achieved. But I think that has dramatically changed over the last 10 years in all of these other ecosystems. And part of that is the startup world has become flatter in a certain way. They have become more global. People read about their role models through blogs and podcasts. Knowledge transfers much more faster. And I think all of these entrepreneurs from smaller ecosystems have gotten much more sophisticated. Now there's still lots of more progress to be done. And my recommendation is always, and it's a little bit kind of myself, I'm not based in the Bay Area. I'm based in Canada, but I travel a lot to the Bay Area. So ultimately, I think to be top-notch as an investor or as a founder, you ultimately need to benchmark yourself with entrepreneurs and investors in the Bay Area. And the only way to do that is to travel there on a frequent basis and kind of learn there, etc. You don't have to be based there all the time. But you certainly have to spend a considerable amount of time there and learn from the best. So lots of progress has been made, but more has to be done. And I think the best step is always like, look at these role models. Look at how the best entrepreneurs run their business, how they pitch their businesses, how they create a real interesting narrative around their businesses. And that's often best done in person.

Utsav Somani: On that note, one of our previous guests of Better Capital, he runs a micro fund in India. I think you know him as well. He mentioned that the Exit India movement for AI companies is underway. If you're building an AI company, you need to be fully based in SF. You can't travel. Your market is there. Your talent is there. Your opportunity is there. Your fearset is there. Do you agree with that?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Totally agree. I think AI is a very interesting space right now for both founders as well as investors. I compared it a little bit like you're running on quicksand against 20 competitors and only one potentially will win. And it's like it's extremely tiring, extremely competitive. It's extremely capital intense. And the reality is like there's no way you have time to figure it out in a smaller market with customers that move in a slower pace, with investors that perhaps don't invest as aggressively. This is the time in AI where the ideas most of the time are very obvious ideas. They attract dozens of entrepreneurs, dozens of different teams that are going after the same obvious ideas. And the only way to win is run faster, execute better. And that can only be done in the largest market with the deepest capital markets, with the fastest moving customers, etc. And that's the Bay Area. Now, there's other areas outside of AI, I think, where you have more time and sometimes it's much better to build in a smaller ecosystem because, you know, cheaper talent and perhaps more time to kind of organically develop a business. AI is not that sector right now. I mean, AI is really a race on quicksand and you need to be as fast as possible.

Dhruv Sharma: And Boris, this is where experience helps. So is this unique to AI, the Bay Area being the center of gravity of all action? Or have you also seen this across other platform shifts, prior platform shifts?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Yeah, I mean, I think I've never seen it as intense, right, as right now. I mean, let's take it back. I think the Internet, the Bay Area was also a big center of gravity, even though other ecosystems kind of very quickly caught up. In crypto, which is a little bit different, it's not necessarily a platform shift, but it was much more distributed, right, across the world, across ecosystems. But right now it feels like, well, the world perhaps in SaaS has moved to other places and gotten much broader in terms of ecosystem coverage. And AI has concentrated again, right, in the SFA area. Now, I think over time it will kind of go further to the edges again. But right now, most of this super condensed activity that's going on is all in the Bay Area. The most talent, the most capital, the biggest model companies, etc.

Dhruv Sharma: And if you had a crystal ball gazing into the future, Boris, all of this very heavy capital deployment into AI right now, how do you think five, ten years out it will have changed the shape and form of venture just as an industry?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Yeah, I mean, it's very interesting about what's happening to venture right now and kind of how you compete in that. Like, I strongly believe that in the future, venture is going to be even stronger in a barbell, right? On the one hand side, there are small boutique funds that kind of do venture as a graph. It's small teams, perhaps two or three partners, smaller funds investing in the earliest stages in literally just a founder, right? And not even a founder and kind of a rough area category. And then on the other side, you're going to have these very large platform VCs like Andreessen, Sequoia, General Catalyst, Lightspeed, etc. that have an amazing LP product, right? They have almost an index across the startup ecosystem. They can write very large checks. I think it's going to be tough to be in the middle. If your midsize fund doesn't have really a strong platform, doesn't really have a strong brand, but the fund is too big to really produce superior returns, it's going to be really tough. So I think that trend to very small, almost kind of craft funds on the one hand side and then the big platform companies on the other side, that will just intensify and play out that way even more aggressively.

Utsav Somani: And if you remove AI, what part of the venture cycle are we in? And this answer can be different for the US and can be different for the Indian ecosystem. When you say remove AI, outside of AI? Yeah, outside of AI. If we were to not take AI, I mean, of course, all the funding headlines are sort of skewed because of the AI taking the bulk of the capital. What part of the venture cycle are we in?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): It's kind of really interesting because I think the market is trying to decide all of that. I think we have a bunch of companies, SaaS companies that are almost being left behind with AI. They need to kind of reinvent themselves in the age of AI. There is some areas that are almost left for dead, like biotech. Very tough area right now. There is some areas that are starting to really get a lot of traction, like physical AI, robotics, et cetera. So it's really interesting. I would say overall, I always think, we always think about what are the overlooked, underfunded areas that are really interesting. And right now, I would say there are not many of them. I feel like the cycles of people getting excited about a category, that category is getting quicker and quicker. I mean, you just look at what's happening in defense across the world. Nobody talked about it two years ago. Now, almost every big fund has a defense investing strategy. You now see the same thing in physical AI, robotics, that people kind of getting ramped up very, very quickly. So it really feels, it's a strange market. It's on the one hand side, we have a whole part of the venture market that is left for dead. SaaS startups and everything non-AI, biotech, et cetera. And then other categories that are getting very quickly to mainstream and almost overfunded. So it's interesting to see how that's all going to play out. Now, I think where I'm getting excited about that, we're going to see in the next one or two years, way more IPOs. And hopefully, that's just going to give another kick to perhaps some of these startups that are not that hot right now, but have great businesses. But nobody really looks at them at this moment if they're non-AI.

Dhruv Sharma: Is the Indian IPO market a point of conversation among global investors, Boris?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Yeah, I mean, I don't know global investors, but certainly, we have at least one late stage startup out of India. And so I've gotten to learn quite a bit about the Indian IPO market. I think it's amazing to see that there is more public interest in Indian tech startups. I think that's the only way in the long run to build a sustainable tech ecosystem, domestic tech ecosystem. And it's great to see that that is really picking up there. And quite frankly, I think right now, it feels like it's more interesting than even in NASDAQ for lots of startups, just because you don't need as much scale. You get more attention just because there's fewer startups public right now. It's fun to see that there's a domestic IPO market developing. And quite frankly, I see lots of US-trained hedge fund and hedge fund-only investors now starting Indian public market funds, right? Because they feel like there's actually lots of interesting startups coming to market, but not as much coverage in terms of analysts there. So it feels like things are really moving in the right direction. And kind of that thriving IPO market is one part of it.

Utsav Somani: We're actually starved for good tech companies. And I mean, the pipeline for the next one or two years looks very, very promising. That's why all the premiums in the public markets in India is just insanely high right now. And I think some people put it in the over-bubbly area and the frothy area. And that's why many of these YC companies, which were earlier domiciled in the US, are now flipping back to India just so that they can list in the Indian markets and get a high liquid premium as well. As a final closing thought, Boris, before we let you go back to your vacation in Italy, when you decided to start investing in India, how do you build nuance around that market? And you started leading deals as well. So that shows an insane amount of confidence in your understanding of the market and the founder and the opportunity here. How do you go about building that out?

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): You know, I think there's really two things I learned. I mean, obviously, it started with the things that India is a super interesting market, lots of talent, growing population, China plus one, etc. So everybody knows kind of all of that. But I think the two things that I learned and the only way to do that is you meet people in person. You need to spend time there. You need to build your network. You need to meet founders and co-investors, etc. But the two things that kind of really changed or kind of supported the thesis beyond the initial one is, A, the quality of the entrepreneurs. And I've said to many people, I think that the best Indian entrepreneurs are on par with the best Bay Area entrepreneurs. And, you know, if you have done investing like me for, you know, kind of a little bit more than a total of 15 years, and you're a founder focused firm, right? You just apply the same criteria across all different markets. And you suddenly realize there's some amazing entrepreneurial talent in India that is overlooked. I think the second thing for us also as fund, we really felt like there was also a kind of a lack of institutional seed funds in India. There's lots of smaller angel-like pre-seed funds, but very few funds that it can actually lead a seed round. That is like a two, $3 million seed round with a one and a half, $2 million check. And that's where we felt like we could also contribute to the market. There was a right for us to win, a right for us to lead, and we could really kind of make a difference in that way. So overall thesis on India, which was always positive, but gotten to know the incredible quality of Indian entrepreneurs, and felt like there was actually something we could add to the venture market at the seed stage. And it's fun to see when these things play out. And we made seven investments in the past two years, which is about almost a third of our investment activity. So we're really serious about India and definitely doubling down.

Utsav Somani: Thank you so much for being a great supporter of our ecosystem, Boris, and hope to see you back here in India soon.

Boris Wertz (Version One Ventures): Thanks for having me.

Utsav Somani: That was great. Take care. All right, folks, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you've had a good Monday and we'll see you on Wednesday at 4 p.m. Thank you.