Full Transcript

Utsav Somani: All right, we're live. It seems like we're all on a vacation, huh? Let's look at different backgrounds, different things. So things can obviously go wrong even when we're doing stream 108, I believe.

Dhruv Sharma: 109, this is. 109, wow.

Utsav Somani: We've not figured this out even after 109 streams. Dhruv feels like he's sitting in some Miami mansion and Swarsh is about to climb the K2, I think.

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: That's right. I'm in Bombay, but in spirit, I'm on the foothills of the Himalayas.

Utsav Somani: Awesome. So I think we've done an Alt Carbon 101 already with your brother, Shrey, who was on the show, but do you want to like maybe spend a couple of minutes giving us a recap of what Alt Carbon does and the company updates since then?

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: Yeah, sure. So Alt Carbon is a translational earth sciences company. We focus on understanding the signals that exist on our planet and being able to transform it to undertake carbon removal activities. Now, Shrey has spoken a bit on TON about how we started. It started with our journey to revive our family's tea estate in Darjeeling. And one of the realizations that we had was that with climate change becoming worse and worse, we will need a lot of climate finance to come to India. And carbon markets was a good way to be able to bring that finance from developed countries to places like India. But the carbon markets were largely broken because of the nature of fraud that existed within avoidance-based carbon projects. So over the course of the last two and a half to three years, Alt Carbon has pioneered and created a new way of doing engineered carbon removal through a process called enhanced rock weathering, where the basics of enhanced rock weathering is that if you look at the mountain behind me, as the mountain behind me has a conical shape, the reason for that is that as rain falls in mountains, it carries down with its CO2 from the upper atmosphere. And that ends up reacting with the silicates on the rocks of these mountains. That chemical reaction leads to the breaking down of the CO2 into bicarbonates. Once these bicarbonates get created, river networks transport them and deposit them to the ocean, where they become corals and sea sharks. Now, that's the natural process through which corals get created from clouds. How do you accelerate that from a geological timescale to a few months? The way that we do that is we take volcanic rock dust, in our case basalt, which India has abundant supply of, and we transport that to the tea estates and rice paddies in and around the Archilane and spread it on agricultural land. And voila, when monsoonal rainfall takes place, carbon removal takes place as well, along with it. Now, the basalt acts as a soil fertilizer, improving crop yields and farmer's incomes. But the more important thing here, the most difficult part of it is that to understand where the carbon is being removed, you need advanced geochemical and sciences techniques of taking soil, water, and river samples and analyzing them in our lab. So that's what oil carbon does. And over the course of the last six to eight months, we've been able to make the world's largest issuance of enhanced rock weathering-based carbon credits. And these are credits that we have delivered to a host of clients globally, including Google, Stripe, Shopify, banks like UBS, as well as shipping companies like MOI.

Utsav Somani: And give us, I mean, the lowdown on what does this Microsoft deal that you recently announced? We read about it in TechCrunch. What does it actually mean?

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: Sure. So let me give you a bit of a primary just on where the carbon markets currently stand. So carbon removal as a subsector of carbon markets only started about four and a half, five years ago. And in earnest, it starts in 2021 as Frontier, which is the advanced market commitment that started that comes into birth. Now, since then, the carbon removal market alone has gone from being at about $10 million worth in size to now being at close to about $4 billion in size. And the number of purchases that has taken place has just skyrocketed. Within this market, the largest buyer is Microsoft. Microsoft has been truly one of the biggest pioneers for promoting sustainability, net zero, and actually investing in new technologies that can lead to removing historic carbon emissions. And they have made purchases across all different technology types. So carbon removal can take place through direct air capture or through ocean alkalinity enhancement, or by using biomass and removing carbon through that, or as we do it to enhance rock weathering. Our deal with Microsoft is their first ever purchase of rock weathering credits from anywhere in Asia. And it's structured as a preliminary deal to start with.

Utsav Somani: And in the sense that, I mean, MRV, like I mean, measurement, like, I mean, verifying all of this, I think that's the biggest thing, right? Because I read that the diligence for this deal took over a year. So this must be harder than any other deal that you've probably signed. So tell us about that.

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: So I would say that the most difficult deal that we've signed was the first deal that we signed, just because, you know, we were so new to what we were doing. That was about two years ago. And our first ever clients were through the Stripe led buyers coalition, which included Stripe, Google, Shopify, and Match Group, the company behind the dating apps. And that was the most difficult one, because we were just so new and so raw, and we barely knew what we were doing. We had just come in with an idea and asked people to take a punt on us. The deal with Microsoft, it was difficult, because yes, it took a lot of time to go through their due diligence loops and hurdles. And the Microsoft team is highly sophisticated. They have their own team of geochemists, scientists, and carbon removal experts. And these are people who go through each and every scientific operational document. And they spend a lot of time with us just thinking through what are the different challenges we will face, how are we going to overcome them, what is our plan to scale, whether we have the financing secured or not, whether we have the investment secured or not. So in that sense, yes, it was a very time taking process. But by the time that we came to the Microsoft deal, we had already been a couple of years in operation. So it was fairly easier in that sense. Now, because of how diligent and how extensive the process was, we ended up learning quite a bit also. It's kind of like how teachers tell you that only when you are told to teach something to someone else do you truly understand whether you understand the concept or not. So even while answering a lot of the due diligence questions to Microsoft, we also realized that these are the ways that we can improve our own operations. So it was difficult, it was also fun, to be honest. But to be noted that this is, as I mentioned, a preliminary deal. So they are contracting 36,920 credits from us, which are meant to be delivered over the course of the next couple of years. And as those deliveries take place, the more important part is that they have the right to order a much larger volume of credits from us. And that's what we're really going after here, to be able to prove that we can credibly deliver these credits that they've ordered and through that get a chance to be able to get a larger contract as well. And on your point about MRV, the science for rock weathering still remains very early. So as part of our contract, we not only have to share a bunch of data about what's happening on ground, what's happening in our labs, but we're also committing to open sourcing a certain part of data protocols as well. And also doing certain R&D projects that we are working on, you know, in the purview of Microsoft.

Dhruv Sharma: So Shreer, you know, a couple of months ago, when you conducted a bunch of us on your wonderful, wonderful turf, I think the first thing that really stuck out for everyone was, you know, on ground zero, the ERW site number one, that placard that bears the names of the entire Stripe Coalition. And everyone was like, dude, these companies are like 5000 miles away from here. And so do you have a pipeline of Indian buyers? Have you announced certain Indian buyers? Is that something that's even a priority right now?

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: So at this point, to be very honest, the buyers are mostly global. And these are Western companies or companies, let's say in places like Singapore, Japan or Korea that are buying. I believe though, that the Indian buyers might start making moves. Let me take this opportunity to at least share with you something that we have in the works. In a couple of months time, we will be launching something called the Alt Explorers program. And this is meant to be a bespoke education and awareness program for sustainability teams around the world. We are inviting about 12 companies to join as part of the program. So it's meant to be a two and a half to three month affair, where every fortnight, we have team members as well as experts who hold these longer sessions with all the participating sustainability teams. And we take them through the science, the operations, the technology, the project financing, the different aspects of how you do carbon removal between enhanced rock weathering and biochar to actually create more awareness and to expand the market. Now, as part of the 12 companies that have signed up, we are in late stage conversations with two different Indian buyers. And I don't know whether we can call them buyers yet, but two different Indian companies that are very interested in learning more about carbon removal, and that have, I believe, aspirations of becoming a pioneer from India when it comes to sustainability. So, you know, TBD, look at this space for more. We'll announce on TON first, who might have signed up.

Dhruv Sharma: And we'd love to have this, it almost inverted the expansion model, right? People will typically serve domestic buyers first before they expand outwards. So this is quite special.

Utsav Somani: I'm going to refer to the numbers in the article. So 15,000 is the target this year, 15,000 credits. And you want to scale up to 15 million, I believe, or 5 million by 2030.

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: That's right. So we've now delivered a little somewhere close to 10,000 carbon credits. That's as of this year, we still have a pretty significant number of months left in this financial year. We will most likely deliver around that same amount before the end of the financial year. But our target of being able to reach a number like 5 million by 2030, that will ultimately come as we start licensing out our technology. So licensing out our tech stack, plus our lab facilities, because what we've now been able to understand is, how do you undertake rock weathering? What are the kind of SOPs required on ground to manage the operations? It's a supply chain nightmare, from, you know, procuring waste to managing so many, you know, trucks that are carrying it to ensuring that on ground, basalt is being distributed, samples are being collected. And then over on top of that, the lab itself, you guys have come and seen it. These are some of the largest earth science labs in India. And this itself is, you know, it takes a significant amount of investment to set these up. But more importantly, we think of it as a crossover between an F1 pitstop and an Hermes atelier, because you need teams of scientists and engineers working inside these labs to be able to actually do the analysis that's needed. And you have to do it with a lot of karigari and kalakari that, you know, the scientists who are working under these mass spectrometers, you know, being able to bend light to your will to be able to see the elemental concentration that is there in a rock sample or a soil sample or a water sample, you know, that is basically like trying a linguist or a translator or a historian trying to understand the story of the earth in that sample. So that is what we plan to start licensing out to very large agri and mining companies, because that's the only way that this really reaches that kind of 5 million number that we're chasing.

Dhruv Sharma: It's first for the benefit of someone who's hearing about the company for the first time, right? And you always keep coming up with better ways to describe the company, but I think nothing can do justice to what you guys have truly built in the ground. So give us a sense of the surface area, like where about the biochar plant, the labs, like enumerate everything for us. Sure.

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: So we started with a very small pilot on about 300 acres of our family's tea estate land, where we were just working with tea fields. This was in the summer of 2024. Now we are in 2026. In 24 months, we've scaled up to close to 60,000 acres. So if my numbers serve me right, that's about a 200x increase in the size of our operations. 60,000 acres is twice the size of San Francisco. Now I'm told that TON is watched, it's a multinational viewership that you cater to. So a lot of people will understand just how large San Francisco is as a city. And this is twice the size of that, that we have done assault deployments on, and we're collecting samples from. When we started, the biggest problem that we faced was that there weren't scientific labs in India where you could do the kind of analysis that was needed to prove that carbon removal from this particular technology was even taking place. We were working with our partners at the Indian Institutes of Science. Their associate professor of earth sciences, Dr. Mishra, is our chief scientist. And his labs are where we did a lot of our initial experiments. But these are very small scale academic labs, cutting edge, state of the art, but yet pretty small in size. So we very quickly realized that if we wanted to expand to the way that we did, we needed to build the lab as well. So we spent the last 18 months or so just focusing on how do we set up the largest earth sciences lab in all of India. And now that we have the setup, we're actually starting to get a number of inbounds from different departments and ministries within the government of India, as well as the government of West Bengal, because they want to start using our labs to do a number of different kinds of analysis. For example, the machines that we have is used for analyzing lunar samples, or to analyze the presence of rare earths when it comes to fly ash or coal tailings. So I mean, scientific infrastructure is never to be seen in and of itself. It is to be understood as an important platform that needs to be built up. And I think that private companies like ours with partnership or with support from government, building this kind of infrastructure is going to be super crucial for what the next two, three decades for India is going to look like.

Dhruv Sharma: It's almost like you think of it as a public good that rightfully belongs to science.

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: You know, when we IPO, I will say that we created a public good. Until that point, I need to create some private shareholder value first. But yes, I do believe that Profits. Yes, I see. We have a magazine that that that we started Ultra magazine, which was dedicated to science and progress. Thank you, sir. And you know, most, most investors would have balked at the idea that, you know, yeah, first finish off at least some deliveries, then start over this magazine, then whatnot. But our investors, including itself, they were, you know, grateful, grateful to them that they were like, yeah, sure, why don't you do this. And that for us was the public good, because we believe that as a company focused on deep tech and applied sciences, it's very important for us to create that awareness amongst other investors amongst potential hires amongst government folks amongst journalists about just how difficult this is, and also to show people that this can happen that India itself has done it over time and again, over the course of the last two centuries. So, you know, just to address your point about public good there, though.

Utsav Somani: And Sparsh, if you were to invite you back, you and Shrey back on to you and say a year, what is one number that you will be proud of, of achieving by then?

Sparsh Agarwal - Co-founder & President, Alt Carbon: By that point, we want to be, we would like to have delivered at least in a year's time, you say? Yeah. In a year's time, I think, hopefully, we would have delivered at least three times the number of credits that we already have. That would be a very important number. But another important number to go with that should be, I think you should ask us at that point, how much inventory have we created? And how much have we expanded our lab capacity? Because ultimately, the more important part here is the rate limiting step in how Elon thinks about things, if you were to apply that here, the rate limiting step is not the presence of a solid is not the presence of land, it is not the presence of meteorological facilities, it is the testing. So can we scale that up massively? Have we made improvements in our carbon removal methods? Like, let's say that we made certain definitive innovations in how we are calculating things on ground, whether we have been able to create interesting models for that, or whether we've been able to speed it up the weathering process. So those are some of the R&D questions which are more qualitative. And then I think that the capacity and inventory questions will be more important as well.

Utsav Somani: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on our show. Wishing you and the team a very, very best ahead. Cheers guys. Cheers. Great to see you. All right, moving on to our next guest and the final one for today. We've got Himanshu. Himanshu, welcome to the show. Hi, it's so nice to be on offline, online. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining our show. So how do you best describe your company? Is it Future Labs? Like, is it Kyra? Like, is that a single product from the lab itself?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: So we had an interesting journey. We built, obviously, this India's first AI influencer, which was sort of like a gimmick thing also, right? It's an Instagram page. For the past one, one and a half years, we have been sort of running as an AI companion company. So besides Kyra, we had like dozens of AI companions that were talking to users. We got about 900K users in India that were chatting with these companions. So it naturally went from an AI influencer company to an AI companion company. Now with the advancements in AI video, we are sort of going back into the AI IP space because now whatever visions we had that, let's say we want to create a feature film with these virtual characters, it's now a reality. So we are going back into that. With AI companions, we faced a lot of challenges. So one of the major challenges, I think this is something that every company faces is that most paid users are only there for NSFW conversations, which we found out the hard way. Once we launched, we were scaling rapidly. We were getting 10,000 users a day. And we had a monetization layer in place. We had Gemini models in the backend, OpenAI models in the backend, Chinese models in the backend. Whatever they allowed, we were allowing. So we didn't put any guardrails. And almost 99% of the users were there for NSFW conversations. So that is something which is revenue generating for us. We were making like $1,000 a day in revenue from a consumer AI app in India. But all of the users were coming for NSFW. Now, that is not something which we want to do. And also the revenue isn't like, you know, it isn't like we're earning in millions. So it's not worth the legal trouble also. So right now we're trying to find a use case. And as a company, we don't want to be the company, hey, let's give it out for free. Then two years later, we'll figure out what's the revenue model. So our DNA is that we want to earn from day one. So that's what we've been...

Utsav Somani: That you've highlighted this ethical concern, because I'm guessing even in this virtual influencer category as well that you, I mean, with Kyra and many others that you launch along these lines, but there must be similar ethical concerns, right? Also, because end of the day, you don't want to build a digital mannequin for people to just rent out for brands and for other like people. So how do you think about that?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: So on the brand side, just like in movies, right? There could be like B grade movies, or they could be Hollywood movies, right? In Bollywood also, there are item songs and there are Ghojpuri item songs, right? It doesn't... Like it's entertainment. It depends on what kind of content you're producing. We always want to be sort of on the classy science fiction side. I don't know if you've seen Star Trek The Next Generation. There's a character called Data in that, which is sort of like in 1980s, there was an AI character that they had built. That is how we imagine that you're sort of asking the difficult questions through science fiction through these real-life characters. Obviously, the audience in India has like... There are all sorts of audiences in India. We want to sort of capture that more premium audience, more aspiring audience. But definitely, ever since video models became easy to do, there is a lot of AI slop, as everyone calls it. So explicit AI content or just the item song version of AI online, which is available out there, which is not something that we want to do. If it's making money, I don't judge anyone also, as long as it's not illegal.

Dhruv Sharma: I think we get the point that you responded to what was essentially an ethical dilemma with conviction. But tell me this about companions. What makes a companion a companion? Otherwise, I can have a wonderful chat with my modern user interface. But what makes a companion a companion?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: So the ethical questions go even deeper when it comes to a companion. Maybe if you want to get more into a philosophical discussion. First of all, a companion... Of course, we have GPT, etc. I think the biggest company... There was a company called Replica, I think. Replica had all these characters, which was pre-AI. It was more of neural language processing, if then logic, that if you say hi, and they felt human. And there's even a very old chatbot called Elisa. When people started talking to a computer, they felt like it was coming alive. They felt like they were talking to a real person, as we go with the Turing test. Now, our goal is to make it as human as possible. If you talk to GPT, it's always positive. It always replies like a bot. But if you talk to one of our characters, they'll be full of personality. They'll not always agree with you. They'll have their own lives going. So what we plan to do is they have their lives going, they are going on with their life. It's like talking to a friend.

Utsav Somani: Now the challenge is... Other thing is, talking about saying that ethical thing, like, isn't the convention, I mean, loneliness, like, is this not driving people to be more lonely? Like, I mean, what you're describing right now?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: So I'll tell you the ideal scenario and what actually we saw happen. The ideal scenario is in India, there are like millions or hundreds of millions of men that don't even know how to have a conversation with a woman. They've never talked to a woman on chat or in person. And they just send any kind of messages to random girls on Instagram. So in an ideal case, all these characters can sort of be your first step. Let's start talking to a character which almost looks like a woman. She will respond like a real woman and you say hi. In the case of AI, what we saw happening, they were even more rude. And if the character doesn't stop them, then it's sort of teaching them the wrong thing, right? In real life also, they'll think that real women will treat them as AI also. Now the ideal case, the AI should teach you how to talk to a woman, but it's not monetizable, right? No one will pay for that. So that is the challenge that we ran into. For someone like a GPD or someone with lots of funding, they can do this for a social cause, but we don't think people would start paying for that.

Utsav Somani: And so coming to, I think the AI influencer category, right? I think, what is the unit of business for an AI influencer? Like, I mean, for a human influencer, like, I mean, of course, there are different metrics that you track. Is it the same for an AI influencer? Like, are you tracking something else? And why will a brand choose an AI-led influencer or an AI-created personality versus, say, a human one?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: Right. So AI content has boomed in the last two years. I think AI influencer puts it in an IP. So if you're able to grow an IP, then that IP will have value. So for example, AI UGC ads have gained a lot of traction. And in India, brands are paying 10,000 rupees for an AI UGC ad. But if they're doing an ad with a Caira-like IP, they would pay 5 lakhs. And it's again, the reason for going with an AI influencer, it's not you're choosing an AI influencer. We always say that a real influencer can have good content or bad content, an AI influencer can have good content or bad content. If you have the right audience, if you're creating the right kind of content, then an AI influencer is good as well. Of course, with AI, now you're not limited to a physical space. You can do all kinds of shoots. You don't need the product. For example, if you're doing a smartphone ad, we don't need to wait for the product. Now, all these limitations now are being lifted from real life people also, because now there are digital twin influencers.

Dhruv Sharma: They are also on the credibility of end users. Can you repeat? How does an AI influencer on the credibility of end users?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: So it's all about storytelling, right? If you are being authentic to the character that you made. So we have a personality Bible for Kyra or X character or Y character. We try to stay authentic to that X character. And now on social media, you know that every two years you need to reinvent yourself, start doing something else. So it's not always that you can stay static, but if you're being authentic to whatever story you have been telling since the start, then you will still have that credibility.

Dhruv Sharma: Does an AI influencer get to be picky and turn down brands?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: Yes, yes, we have turned down a lot of brands. We got a very funny like a jingle, real trend that they wanted us to do. This was a small finance bank that we turned down recently.

Utsav Somani: So we keep getting the decision, right? Like, I mean, you made the decision and it was not on brand. But what is the production economics look like here? I'm guessing it's much better than a human person. Like my friend who runs a influ management agency also said the same thing I mean, because agencies get 10 to 20%. These guys, I mean, AI led influencers, when they create these AI IPs, typically the gross margin is much higher. Now that the JNI costs are going down, models are improving and stuff. So is that the reason for doing this like better economics apart from all the physical world limitations?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: Right. So we started with 3D engines. When we started in 2022, there was no AI production wasn't as evolved. So we started with 3D engines. That time it was quite expensive, still cheaper than like a physical ad shoot. Right now, production cost has collapsed. It's almost next to nothing. Within $100, you can produce anything a brand would need, whether it's like a UGC ad or a full production digital ad. It's all talent cost right now. So the costs have completely collapsed.

Dhruv Sharma: Himanshu, I've often wondered why don't we start thinking of AI influencers as, I don't know, mascot. Like I've never seen a human being advertised for McDonald's. It's always been Ronald McDonald or, you know, the KFC Captain Sanders's name or whatever.

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: Right. So I think mascot opportunity has been tried by a few brands, but I feel like the execution has never been done well. So Manforce, Condoms did something. We created Kyra. So these guys created Myra for their AI influencer mascot. A lot of Indian brands have done it. I feel like the execution has never been up to the mark. In US, KFC did AI Colonel Sanders. So it's been happening. But I feel like that big AI character that everyone knows, I think one of the most popular examples is probably Microsoft. They had the Halo character called Cortana, which they also named as the digital assistant. So I think there is a lot of opportunity. It hasn't really been executed that well. But surely I think we will see a lot of AI mascots like whoever is thinking of their next mascot. They would be going. I think a lot of these brands have these AI chatbots like Air India has AI chatbots. So they are sort of that mascot. But that storytelling has never been done on that bigger scale.

Utsav Somani: Makes sense. And in terms of globally, have you seen disclosures being very strict? Like AI generated content, I think is already getting marked on all platforms and stuff. But do you think advertising body in general will come together like different industries come together and make disclosures very strict for this?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: I think the social media companies have done a great job, like whether it's identifying any AI generated content. So I have my own digital twin that I use to post YouTube content. So Instagram and YouTube are quite active with identifying an AI generated content. There is that AI creator label on Instagram. So if you are an AI creator, you can enable that label. It's profile wide so people know. So the platforms have done a really good job. It's very easy to disclose and they have gone above and beyond. Even if you don't disclose, they will identify that your content is AI and then they will disclose it on your behalf. So even like we don't really need bodies anymore because in India, especially like going beyond AI, just regular influencers never disclose that they're doing paid partnerships. So in India, there's almost no laws or no rules being followed. So I don't expect people to follow AI laws as well. But thankfully, these social media companies have done a great job.

Dhruv Sharma: What if there was like a celebrity endorsed AI twin, like if you wanted Virat Kohli to do an ad for your brand, he'll have to travel all the way for it. What if he doesn't let you do it?

Utsav Somani: So there have been cases like this. Cadbury did this Diwali campaign, right? I think with some celebrity where I think Shahrukh Khan did it. Yes. So recently, there was a portfolio company where I think they created these things that the ad was customized even on small micro markets, like even within Delhi, like people were seeing different ads.

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: So there are two trends. One is this hyper personalization. What they did is they, have you guys used Haijan or tried Haijan or seen any of these avatars? So it's similar to a Haijan like technology that once you have one minute of content from any person, you can recreate them saying anything. So Shahrukh Khan said the names of local dealers, local retailers.

Utsav Somani: So now, I mean, Himanshu, so just as a disclosure, this is not real Dhruv and me like these are our avatars actually.

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: Haijan has a live AI avatar option also, it's not that good. So now what we are seeing is that every ad will be suited for you. So soon you will see like a magnesium supplement ad and you will be starring in that ad. So, and some brands have done this like you right now you need to input a photo and then they'll create an ad for you and show it to you. So this is definitely going to happen just beyond voice. Now you will actually star in that. And the second thing recently the what you were saying Virat Kohli is not available for a shoot. So TVS did an ad with Messi where Messi is riding the scooter in Kolkata and he's promoting TVS scooter and it's a completely AI generated ad which just recently happened.

Dhruv Sharma: Messi knows about it or did they go behind his back?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: I think his manager somewhere gave permission to use it.

Utsav Somani: Something like Fierce Frostman did a pan masala ad and I think he was apparently pissed off where he didn't know that he was promoting pan masala stuff that can happen in India. But Himanshu as a final closing question like do you see future labs as a Pixar for these synthetic IPs or do you see them? Do you see yourself as like a marketing agency? What do you see yourself as for the next two three years?

Himanshu Goel - Co-founder & COO, FUTR STUDIOS: Definitely more on the Pixar side. We have seen the value of compounding IPs like and especially in the age of AI when content is so easy to produce. I think IP is the only thing that you can compound value over.

Utsav Somani: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on our show. Wishing you the very best. Thank you. Thank you. All the best. All right folks we're wrapping today up.