Full Transcript

Utsav Somani: Alright, listeners. This is stream 130. Today, we've got an action packed day. It's midweek, so we thought let's get busy. We're starting off with Darshan of Revspot. Darshan, welcome to the show.

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Thanks, Thanks for having me here.

Utsav Somani: Alright. I'm a bank. I come to Revspot. What happens?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): So if you're a bank, like, you know, you're looking to either acquire, like, you know, high income customers, like, you know, for your HNI services or any sort of, like, you know, wealth management business apart from, like, you know, the traditional banking, like, you know, products. Right? But the problem is, like, you know, the traditional channels that you have, they're not very good at, like, in finding the right sort of, like, audiences for you, which means you're doing a lot of media spend. You're acquiring, you know, basically, a lot of junk. You're also spending a lot on, like, you know, processing that junk to literally try and find the needle in the haystack. Right? So that's what, like, you know, we are building a spot for, which is the entire journey from targeting to, you know, basically, like, you know, processing. And then finally, the right person meeting the right sales team member, can we automate this completely leveraging AI at various stages of the life cycle is what Revspot is trying to do.

Utsav Somani: And what is the company, in terms of customer size and how many customers do you have across what specific segment?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Yeah. We have over 75 customers, right now, with so, and, we work in, like, you know, various industries, but specifically, you know, basically, the high ticket B2C, segments. Right? Like, you know, wherever the ticket prices are, like, you know, pretty high, and therefore, it involves, like, not just marketing, which is a lead generation, but it also involves, like, you know, lead qualification and further consultative, you know, basically selling process. And therefore, it's a very heavy revenue sort of, like, you know, life cycle, for these companies. So that's where, like, you know, Revspot, like, in the world's the best, right now. Having said that, in the base segment, like, we also do, like, you know, support D2C ecommerce. But, one of our, like, biggest segments right now is real estate and, a fact that, like, we are very proud of is to take the top 10 builders in India. Six of them are already our customers. Right? Like, you know, so they use us, like, pretty heavily. We're also in and education and automotive are, like, in a few other sectors, like, you know, that we support. And there's also to basically separate, like, B2B section as well. Right? Like, you know, not just B2C, but even, like, B2B customers, they can be very focused and specific targeting that they need end up using this.

Utsav Somani: And why did you mention high ticket? You rev share on the sale that closes via the lease that you generated or it's mostly just because the enrichment takes some effort?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): It is that the enrichment, you know, basically takes effort, but also, you know, basically is very crucial. Right? Like, you know, what happens in a high ticket sale? For example, let's take real estate. Right? Like, the way we operate. There are not a lot of, like, the people who can afford a 2 crore or a 3 crore flat and, like, you know, sometimes, now luxury has, like, started moving towards, like, a 5 crore and above. Right? And especially, like, in Mumbai, you know, the kind of, like, comprises even in Google. Right? So they're not trying to go after, like, you know, a large market. They know their audiences, obviously, who they are specifically. Right? Like so they know the characteristics. They know the income ranges, and they want to target them only. But, traditionally, you know, basically, like, on the various channels, like, you know, Meta or Google, it's more broad based approach. Even if, like, you know, those channels say that, like, hey. Look. You can use these sort of filters and all this. Everything is an approximation. Right? So that's why, like, you know, Revspot helps them with one very specific, like, an audience data that you can tailor for your specific use case. And then, of course, they can we do rely on, like, your Meta and Google to reach out to them. But we have flipped marketing around. So instead of first going to the channel and trying to basically figure your audience out, you come to Revspot, you first see the audience, and then you take them on the channel to kind of, like, target them and, like, you know, bring them into the funnel. And that's why, like, high ticket B2C requests a lot of, like, you know, help. The problem there is, like, you know, the largest and that's why the media spend. And the CAC there is also, like, you know, highest as well.

Utsav Somani: But so, I mean, generating the leads and then enriching them. And how do you enrich these leads? Like, I mean, there is some element of voice AI involved as well where you sort of, like, give them a call. The human element is taken away. So at least some cost can be managed via voice agents now.

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Absolutely. Would so. So it it's not just, like, you know, one specific activity in the value chain that we do. And that's what customers, like, gonna love about Revspot, that we complete the value chain versus, they having to stitch multiple teams, together or multiple tools together. Right? Like, you know, manage the entire show. So with Revspot, like, you know, in your first question, right, which is if you're a bank, so there are many activities that you need to get done before a sale happens. Right? So you need to have your creative sorted. You need to have your ad copies. You need to have your audience data. Then you need to go to multiple channels. Like, you know, there's a performance marketing manager for Meta. There's somebody else for Google. Connect them all. There's data analyst, and then you get leads. And historically, when, like, you know, customers get leads, it's just the name and the number and the email. Right? Because you can't ask a lot of details on the lead form, then your CPLs, like, you know, will shoot up. And then you have to pass it on to your presales team who will call all those leads. And it's a very human process. Right? Like, you know, they're just trying to verify whether they're a legitimate inquiry or not. And, that that's where, you know, basically the loss of, like, efficiency is. Right? And that's a that that that's essentially, like, you know, what we try to solve. We just right from, like, in targeting all the way till

Utsav Somani: yeah. Alright. Apologies for the disconnection. Darshan, sorry. You were continuing?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Yeah. I think, it's sort of like, you know, your question was, like, you know, what parts of, like, you know, the value chain that we solve and, like, where specifically voice AI comes in. Right? And what I was explaining is that, like, you know, when you're a a company that needs to generate leads and, like, you know, pass it on to your sales team, there are a lot of, like, activities that you do, which is creatives, of course, like, you know, ad copies and multiple channels, and those channels have different, like, you know, managers. And then leads come, you have data analysts, and the leads historically, like, you just have the name number and, like, the email because you can't ask a lot of things on the lead form, customers drop off, otherwise. Right? And then all these leads have to be called by presales, to figure out, like, you know, whether they are a legitimate inquiry or not, and then you pass it on to your, like, in a sales team. Right? So each of these activities, like, can we have leverage AI to automate them. Right? So we have a creative tool that automatically understands, like, you know, the kind of campaign that you want to run, that generates the right sort of, like, creatives, then launches the campaigns on various channels. And once leads come, right, just by reading the name and the number in the email, we're able to, like, you know, bring in 50 different data points, like, you know, to our customer, about a particular lead. And then an automated voice AI and, like, in WhatsApp outreach. Right? Very simple in a basically, like, in a sort of conversations to figure out why exactly they filled up the lead form. And only the most interested, and capable prospects then get passed on to your, like, in the sales team. Right? And when I say all this, like, you know, it kind of sometimes seems like we have replaced a lot of, like, in a different humans in the loop. We don't see in that way. Right? Like, you know, we have augmented, like, the human effort, like, you know, with AI. Because historically, like, you know, each of those, like, you know, folks, were stuck in their specialization. Like, you know, the creative person only had to make the creative. They did not have view of, like, you know, what was happening in the campaign. I imagine that one person, like, you know, using our product capable of fully launching the campaign. Right? So we have multiplied the effort versus basically replacing the anyone right now.

Utsav Somani: And you've done B2B intent data before, right, at Slintel and 6sense?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Oh, yeah. And before that, like, you know, for a decade, I was with, B2C, companies, like, you know, driving their revenue. So I was the sales leader for Livspace for the longest time and then Unacademy as well. So that's where the problem statement experience comes from. And then I pivoted my career to the B2B world where I saw Slintel, like, you know, and the data intelligence, like, you know, that they had, really blew my mind. Right? And then we got acquired by 6sense, and there was a even bigger light bulb moment where I was like, oh, this is what, like, you know, B2B is doing, where, like, you know, there's account based marketing, there's intent, like, you know, technology being developed. And very honestly, 6sense was doing AI before AI even became a buzzword. So that's why I started connecting those thoughts to my B2C experience, and I, saw the gap there that, like, you know, the goodness of, like, you know, B2B that, B2B ref tech as they say it, like, massive companies like Apollo, Zoom, and Focali, are now very popular, that but they were developing and not not yet seeped into, like, no p two c, and that's the gap that, like, the Revspot is filling.

Utsav Somani: And what part of res Revspot wouldn't be possible for the if we didn't have the AI tools and the services that we have now?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Well, I think, you know, basically, a lot of, like, you know, parts especially, like, in a scale, like, in how quickly, like, you know, we so it's a two year old company. Like, you know, already working with 75 plus and that we enterprise grade customers across, like, you know, various industries. The scale at which we we do, like, you know, was only possible because of, the developments in AI. Like, you know, I think our engineering team, like, you know, we we we are very small, like, you know, as a company, like and I think my CTO, Chirag, will tell you that, like, you know, there are not more than, like, six to seven engineers that he has, because he himself is, like, doing the work of five to six engineers using AI. Right? So that's how we use it internally. But also, in the base of our products, like, VoiceAI would not have been possible. That's what VoiceAI for our specific industries is very popular because it can have longer conversation. It can have in a base

Utsav Somani: What modules are you using? Conversation. Are you using different models? Or

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we we see, absence is not to fully develop a tool. What we do is, like, you know, we build harnesses around it. And then, like, you know, depending on the use case, like, you know, we can use the right model. That's the advantage. And the same thing happens for creatives. Right? Like, you know, where you have Nano Banana, like, you know, you have so many other, like, you know, models. And each, like, new use case is evaluated, in terms of, like, you know, what's the complexity, and what's the impact, right, like, you know, of, the output. And then the right model is frozen, suggested by our product. And, of course, the user can then, obviously, modify that suggestion to use the right model.

Utsav Somani: And there was a stat that I read that the customer graph that you have, it's top 3% of India. That's kind of that's the kind of data that you have. Typically, when we used to do SMS marketing back in twenty eleven, twenty twelve, we have those excel sheets, those databases that you would buy that these are car owners, these are doctors, these are, I mean, people who own, like, flats, from, like, Nehru Place in CDs or pen drives where you had, like, these Excel sheets with one lakh entry, five lakh entries. So you said that top 3% of India you have data for?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): No. Absolutely.

Utsav Somani: Because in your customer draft now because you've collected so much, across different industries?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Yeah. Eight to 10 crore people profiles, like, you know, that's approximately, like, in the top 3% of, like, in India. That's what we focused on because very honestly, the kind of industries that we spoke about, like, you know, real estate banking, health care, like, in automotive, 99% of, like, their business happens, like, you know, from, like, India's top 3%. Right? That's one. The other thing, like, you know, it's also about our data, like, and I'm especially when I say consumer data, it kind of, like, you know, gets in the gray area and, like, you know, people get skeptical about, like, hey. What about, like, you know, DPDP, the data privacy law. Right? None of our data is actually, basically, personally sensitive. Right? Like, you know, when we say that, like, hey. Look. We have intelligence around, like, you know, who the top 3% are, and, like, you know, what they need to be targeted for. These are signal based in basically data points that we have versus, like, you know, your actual credit score or whether your actual income range or, like, you know, where you stay. These are approximations to, you know, basically, hey. But some might be earning this much, in this particular range. E is staying in this sort of a community, you know, basically, like, you know, let's say in this sort of, like, you know, pin code. And therefore, probably, you know, basically, is the right target for this, like, in a particular property or particular vehicle. I was just trying to basically actually kind of make me do a background check on you. Right? Like, this is that's not what we do at all. It's all signal based on basically more behavioral information versus taking action in data positive.

Utsav Somani: Because actual data can get really sensitive, and the DPDP act that you also mentioned, I think it comes, I mean, gets active next year. But also the consent manager framework, which is going live in November, what's happening there?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Yep. Yep. So in terms of, like, you know, the consent management. Right? Like, you know, so because, like, you know, we already have the data, one of, like, you know, the, easiest things that we can do in terms of generating dates is to kind of, like, you know, just and because, like, you know, we have our own voice AI product, we can do it at scale. Right? Like, you know, so we can start spamming people and, like, start doing all sorts of, you know, basically cold outreaches, which is not what Revspot does. Right? Like, you know so what we do is we use our consumer intelligence on channels like, you know, Meta and, like, you know, Google to show you an ad. Right? Like, you know so when you click on that ad, you are seeing, you know, basically a consent form that says, okay. Look. I'm interested in this particular product, and I have given this information for, you know, basically, like, you know, these reasons. And that's how we are capturing, you know, basically, consent to further enrich your profile to, you know, basically then kind of, impact customer tag I mean, talk to you better.

Utsav Somani: And zooming out, do you think, like, this consent manager framework is, I think, a net positive for, Indian ecosystem? Like, I mean, just the users of India?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): No. Absolutely. What's up? I haven't been in this space for, like, five years now, two years at Revspot, for three years at 6sense. And six is also a global business. Although, like, you know, we were, heavily, like, in US focused, we also had a a sizable, you know, basically, business in India that high directly headed. The data market out there is, like, you know, I mean, it's scary, to be very honest. Right? Like, having been in this space, a lot of, like, you know, data vendors talk to us because we are a source of revenue for, like, you know, data partners. But we are very clear about, like, you know, working with the most most legitimate, you know, basically partners. We evaluate their DPDP readiness, their ISO certifications. We are since, you know, basically, like, you know, are compliant. That's how, like, we have raised BC funding as well. But yeah. Like, and I think it's a net positive. Like, you know, with DPDP, I'm extremely happy about that. It's nowhere close to, you know, basically, the strictness of GDPR yet. Eventually, like, you know, I think Plate Connect will kind of go in that direction, but the initial framework itself is, like, pretty strong.

Utsav Somani: But do you think, like, we'll eventually get to an Internet where we have those allow all like, every website becomes annoying with, like, those 10,000 different pop ups in India?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): I hope, you know, basically, we can solve that in a better manner for sure. And that's why, like, you know, GDPR is also struggling in terms of, like, the amount of, user inputs that they require. So I think, like, you know, we'll you and that six and six, you know, we were already, like, working towards, the framework of, let's say, predictive, you know, basically, like, no consent and, rather than interrupting the user, you know, basically giving them a choice of, like, exploring it, like, by themselves if they want to. And that's why I think the CCPA is slightly better than, you know, basically, GDPR in its, on start. Mhmm. So I think DPDP is kind of, like, watching both. And over the course of time, I think, like, we will not opt the best practices.

Utsav Somani: And given that you mentioned that you're sort of like this orchestration layer with your product, right, and the different layers that you, offer as a service and a product, to your customers, what if the big labs actually get into this? Like, do you think, Revspot will be able to maintain, the lead in, motes?

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Yeah. I think, this is a sizable market for sure for, even in a basically, like, you know, the foundational, like, you know, technology companies to get into. Because, ultimately, if there is a enterprise, like, as long as it's not for profit, it has to do revenue. And to do revenue, you have to spend on, like, you know, marketing and then in a basically, like, you know, sales. Right? And therefore, in a basically, there's a lot of, like, you know, money to be kind of, like, in a media and, like, no value to be captured. The board comes in, like, being the first, over year for sure, like, you know, so and I'm not gonna say that, just because, like, you know, we were first born, like, you know, we our product will always be better. It will be, but even better will be our data. Right? Like, you know, and like I said, like, your data, not in terms of personally sensitive data, but in terms of, you know, basically, like, you know, signal based data. Right? Like, you know, behavioral data. For example, because, like, you know, we have done so much of, you know, basically marketing in real estate, like, in India. We know the kind of, you know, basically demographics that are inclined towards, like, you know, the right property ranges. Now from there, you can interpret, you know, basically, if they were interested in a property in this location at this point of time based on, you know, basically, like, you know, their, approximate range of demographics, like their age group and all those things. You can kind of, like, predict, okay, two years later, I think they might be in the market for, basically, let's say, a week. Right? Like, you know, a school change. Right? Like, you know, because they're also, like, moving there, this thing. So this sort of, like, my intelligence is starting to, like, inoculate in our database, and we are started seeing this goodness, not just within industry, but across industries. Right? Like, you know, where our education customers, for example, they have been able to reach out to the right prospects faster because of the intelligence that, you know, basically, we have been able to pull from, like, you know, real estate.

Utsav Somani: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on our show, Darshan. Wishing you the best, and congrats on the recent raise.

Darshan Subash (Revspot): Thanks so much, Thanks for having me. Yeah. It's a pleasure.

Utsav Somani: Yes. Alright. Listen. Moving on to our next guest and a very close friend of mine, Neeraj of Astrobase. Neeraj, welcome to the show.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Hi. Hi, Usa. Thank you so much for having me here.

Utsav Somani: How are you? Are you dialing in from the facility?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): I'm dialing in from the office.

Utsav Somani: Gotcha. So we'll talk about a few things. I mean, so just for our listeners, Neeraj and I go along, I mean, we go way back. I remember I have this distinct image of Neeraj and Sumit. We had gone for a dinner in Bombay when CoinDCX was a very small company. I I think less than 20 people. And, Bitcoin, I think, hadn't even crossed $10,000 then. This was 2018 and 2019. And, some of the Neeraj reached for his laptop started replying to customer support emails during the dinner. And what a what a time. Now look at this. Like, I mean, size of the ambition. I mean, he's standing here explaining what he's building to mister Modi, for the space day National Space Day. How is this meeting? How is this feeling?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. I mean, just a couple of days back before this, I got a call, that I've been invited to one of these events where, where PM Modi was was meeting some of the space startups. And and I thought, okay. So I went in there and, wow. I mean, great. What an amazing meeting with the PM himself. And, see, I never met PM. Neither did I think of doing that, you know, and, I think he's a very strong personality, very, very strong personality. And he just controls the room when you are in his presence. And, he said a few things, you know, very useful things to me. And, I invited him to the facility to when the engine hot hot fires Hot fires. I told him, sir, you have to be there. So yeah. Let's see how that how that goes.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. But, also, I think talking about ambition, because a lot of our listeners, they wanna understand, I think, the basic premise, which I also sometimes fail to understand. You built a unicorn, which is CoinDCX, $2,000,000,000 in value. Most people will be like, I'm done. Space interest. Like, how do you think that you wanna build an engine which is instead of SpaceX use Raptor. Right? There have been seven other test files of this, FFSC engine type, but SpaceX is the only one in the world to actually have done something with this engine. So that level of emission jump, sector jump, industry jump, like, how does that happen?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. No. We are, those are when we were starting. I hope I can use in the English mix.

Utsav Somani: Yeah. Yeah. It's all friendly. Yeah.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Okay. So those are when I was starting and, back then. So you backed us right initially in the CoinDCX, journey. But I was also actively contemplating space startup, but then ended up choosing blockchain because that space allowed me to call the private companies.

Utsav Somani: Oh, cool.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Those are these, man. The government opened it up in 2020, but FDI '24. Okay. So, like, properly. And now it is so so, from my childhood, I have been wondering. I understand the big bang. You know? I understand the, key singularity, fine. But if if there was the singularity and if all of it started from a dot, that dot help also has to be there somewhere. Right? So what is outside that, and and and why does it why does it exist at all? I mean, even if you know the origins of the universe, the origin also needs to have a why. Right? It has to exist somewhere outside the universe itself. So it just blows my mind. And, and and, there's nothing better that I can be doing right now. And and just thankful to the Indian government for opening it up, you know, and and about the engine you asked. Millions in Take, so choose choose a technology that is, like, next level. Globally, the best. Something that that when somebody sees India then then then for in every field, people will try for the best. Other eight field best So, why not in every field? I think that's what, I hope to achieve, you know, and I think, that should that should change the country.

Utsav Somani: And that becomes, like, sort of the ceiling or sort of this ambition level that people can aspire to. Right? Because you've shown them that this is possible. Like, I mean, this is physics. This is possible. This is ambition.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): So Exactly.

Utsav Somani: And, I mean, let's talk about, I mean, the engine itself. Like, I think, technical So I think, as I say, simple terms is. This is Everest. August 7, you've shown this. It's somewhat 3D printed, some imported parts, but mostly 3D printed and assembled and made in India at your facility in Andhra Pradesh, I believe.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): In Bangalore. The integration and the manufacturing has been done in Bangalore. Andhra Pradesh is the testing site.

Utsav Somani: Testing site. So we'll come to the propulsion testing site later, but talk to us about Everest. Like,

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): hey. Yeah. So people call this particular kind of engine as the holy grail of rocket engines. It's a And the full-flow staged combustion engine.

Utsav Somani: It's not gonna be trying just for, this

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): see, the complex part of this engine, you can see. The the complex looking part. A lot of wires and lot of tubing, etcetera. That is the complex part. And and rocket engines, they are named after the architecture of this upper part. The upper part is called the the the turbo machinery.

Utsav Somani: Okay.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): So you see that, yellowish part? That's the thrust chamber. That's the chamber. That's where the propellants burn at high pressure. Very, very high pressure. So its entire objective is to push propellants at that pressure inside the chamber.

Utsav Somani: That gives you the

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): That is the machinery. That gives you the thrust. So there are many kinds of engines.

Utsav Somani: Liquid oxygen and?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Liquid methane. Liquid methane. Liquid methane. Yeah. So that's the so to this engine consumes roughly two fifty liters of propellants per second. But, after So so That's how we call it. Right? And, so and and that needs to be posed at very, high pressures. So the full flow stage combustion, is basically named after the architecture of the turbo machinery, the upper part. Then there are, that is the most complex kind of turbo machinery because it has two turbo pumps. One is black one and one is the silver one, LOX and methane turbo pumps. And both are individually pushing liquid oxygen and liquid methane, at at at high, pressure such that internally speed of the fuel, you know, fuel and of these propellants, internally, they travel for at, like, half a kilometer per second. And then the speed of the year. So and and the the machines are rotating at, like, 30,000 RPM even more. So so and and at cryogenic temperatures. And both of these pumps have to be operating in sync. So and and by the way, one of these, like, single pump consumes five megawatt of power. Like, so that is the complex part.

Utsav Somani: And you are gonna test fire this hot fire this next year, I believe.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): So we are under the active campaign of firing. So hot fire is not just one event. It's it's a campaign. It's a month long. Yeah. Yeah. It's months and months. It takes months and months to, run the campaign. We are right now in the middle of it. We'll tell you when it is, like, done.

Utsav Somani: But, I mean, so all of this testing we get out is also expensive. But tell me a little bit about, I think, of your space 101, Karim. Like, I mean, suborbital I mean, I think Skyroot, Vikram went to four fifty kilometers. Like, what is the distance that you're trying to cover with this? Leo?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): The distance can be covered. Any distance is fine. It's about, the payload, payload capability. So the first we're targeting, we are being

Utsav Somani: to 10 ton.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yes. Eight tons to lower orbit, and this is a 200 kilometer orbit. I mean, then if you go higher, then payload slightly comes down. Right? That's that's fine. But, that is the 200 kilometer is the usual benchmark or usual reference point, you know, for for describing your vehicle. So we are targeting for eight tons per flight. That's the first version of the flight. Then we will scale the flight also, right, the size of the flight. Overall, the the target is for us to be able to send thousand tons annually to the lower orbit. That is the that is the company target. That's our internal milestone.

Utsav Somani: Wow. And to put things into perspective And US will be punches out there, I think.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): US will be already, with the stars if they will cross 10,000, annually. Right? In 2025, they sent 2,700 tons to space. China sent around three seventy tons to space. We sent 9.5 tons to space. India should, I mean, I I said India is, like, one sixth of the global population. We should be targeting thousand tons. That's secondary. But at least target has to be that. That's what we are gunning for, and everything has been worked out backwards from that target. The engine, the size of the engine, the size of the vehicle, combined with reusability, all of this, will achieve that that milestone.

Utsav Somani: I mean, technical words say, like, 800 kilonewtons and then 80 ton class, FFSC engine, full flow stage combustion engine. I mean, eighty eighty ton and 800 kilonewtons

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): see if you that, the force equals to mass into acceleration. F equals to m a. Right? Force has a, Newton, unit. So force is actually eight eighty kilonewton 800 kilonewton. Right? And and so that is the force that it produces. But we'll score roughly, short hand gravity divided, 9.8 divide 80 ton, roughly. You know? So it's easier to under comprehend 80 tons. So, basically, what it means is this engine while its own weight is 700 kg, it produces a thrust of 80 tons. That's, that's the power. So it's huge.

Utsav Somani: And, I mean, YouTube questions are buzzing actually right now. So, how they developed FFSC engine in such a quick amount of time? Even ISRO hasn't attempted this. What is their secret sauce?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): See, we have only developed. We have to test fire this. And until and unless we test fire this, it's a piece of metal. That's it. Call it whatever. But, so we have to test fire this and the test fire campaign is ongoing. And and and, ISRO, of course, has the, you know, ISRO is the ISRO is the one of the greatest institutions because all of that we are doing is because of fifty years of ISRO. In fact, America or China country there are, like, lakhs of, people talented in space domain. No other country. And all thanks to ISRO. So right? So

Utsav Somani: You're thinking of ISRO key here. Right? I mean, your cofounders, I think, are trained and, were working in ISRO also?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. Yeah. They were but the cofounder is a pro from a propulsion background, Devakumar. He has built engines, before as well, flown them. And, but but he also wanted to develop, like, the most cutting edge engine. Right? That was his, like, next goal. So and he's we are batchmates actually from IIT Bombay. So, yeah. He's from aerospace. I also am electrical. So yeah.

Utsav Somani: And there's one more question from Alphadense. AlphaDefense. What share of satellite launch ridership are you targeting from India and international customers? What's the split going to be?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): AlphaDefense. I follow them on Twitter. Great.

Utsav Somani: I think I have a question.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Okay. Split of c. Right now, I think, Indian market is only growing, emerging. So we don't, India market but, Astrobase's goal from day one is, the global demand. And global demand is, like, ballooning. The people are, people have people have locked out of launch capacity. Like, team teams are waiting here. And, I think it's a great chance for India to to seize that opportunity, you know, and, for that, we need bigger vehicles. We need medium lift and large vehicles. So, Astrobase is gunning for the global demand.

Utsav Somani: Gunning for the global demand? And pricing Right? I think that was a thing that PM Modi and other people have also emphasized that Indian pricing has to come down significantly. And you mentioned a word or a number, which is $300 per kg by 2034.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. See, $300 dollars you need full reusability, rapid reusability, etcetera. I'm not, so I'm not commenting on that right now, but I'll tell you what. India has a very structural pricing advantage. Except the hardware cost, our operating costs are very low in India because the human capital human cost is one fifth of US and Europe. One fifth. So and and and if you see, SpaceX has around fully loaded. They they are they're spending $3,000,000,000 annually just on salaries. Wow. So And this is big number. It is pretty expensive. Right? So we have a structural pricing advantage. I think, it's too early to comment for me on the pricing, but it will be very competitive globally. And, and and and, you know, pricing also falls, inversely with the size of the vehicle. So you increase the size and the pricing falls. So that's why while the first vehicle is going to be eight tons, next figure is going to be much bigger. With the based on the same propulsion system, we're not going to change the propulsion system. Right? So,

Utsav Somani: so I mean, eight ton vehicle

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Eight ton is a payload.

Utsav Somani: Eight ton is the payload. So, I mean, full vehicle. Yeah.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): The vehicle is 200 tons plus.

Utsav Somani: 200 tons plus. And what will be the first launch site?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Launch site, we are, we are working with the government to secure. It will be in either security code or to work we have yet to figure it out. That part is something we'll announce maybe in a couple of months.

Utsav Somani: And your aim is that you wanna make many of these Everest engines in a year. But you want to be a launch company, an engine supplier, or a fully integrated vertical company that is basically just, I mean, giving, transport to satellites and other payloads?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. Yeah. Fully integrated launch, is what we are running for. The in the engine that we are, building is squarely for our own purpose. You know, in rockets, engines is the most tough part. Propulsion is the toughest part. So if we own the engines, it makes sense for us to own the launch. And, yeah.

Utsav Somani: There's one more question. Neeraj, you've cracked the rocket engine. Can you also crack the fighter, jet engine for AMCA? Also, if you can shed some light, what makes it so difficult to crack engines?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. See, rocket engines versus fighter jet engines, both are very different. Very, very different. And and it's not I'm I would not say we have cracked it. Like I said, it's in process. But,

Utsav Somani: I think the fourth nation to have showcased FFSC engine?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Russia did did it, but very, like, fifty years ago probably. Forty, fifty years ago. So they are no more. We removed that than we then in fact, Astrobase is the fourth company. One is, SpaceX, of course, Stoke Space. Then third is LandSpace. LandSpace, we are not sure, but but what we what we hear that they have, FFSCC engine and fourth is Astrobase. So that's that's it. And our fighter jet engines fighter jet engines need to run for hours and hours. You know? So, different level of reliability, and they carry people expensive, fighter jet itself. So so, the testing, the reliability levels, and the testing of fighter jet is like, the qualification criterias are very, very stringent. So even if if we build something, but it's building, you can do in two, three years, maybe. Right? I mean, in that range. But the testing qualification and the achieving the reliability takes takes takes, like, one decade. So, that's the problem with the, secondly, technically, they are challenging because increasing the thrust of fighter jet engines is very, complex because they have to rely on air, you know, for oxygen, for burning the fuel. And, yeah. So it's it's it's it's more complex. At least three to four times more complex than rocket engines, you know, to be to be fair to be fair on that. But I would love to attempt that if if someday it comes to it. Let's see. And and and

Utsav Somani: engine rolls Royce. Right? Fighter jet engines.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Fighter jet engines. AMCA program. I don't know. I mean, fighter jet engines. We'll have to see. Yeah.

Utsav Somani: It's space 101, this thing. So the two stage launch vehicle and all of these things like, I mean, I mean, lay it out for us as a one zero one.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Two stage? Sorry?

Utsav Somani: Two stage launch vehicle.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Two stage launch vehicle, see, they are fundamentally inefficient with launch vehicles. When launch vehicles go up up, then they keep on consuming fuel. So out of this entire rocket, most of it is fuel tanks. And and when you have gone to a height of, say, fifty fifty kilometers, most of the fuel has already been consumed. So you carry empty tanks. Right? You you carry empty tanks. So at some point, you just want to share share that weight. You don't want to carry those empty tanks to space. It's just very inefficient.

Utsav Somani: What you see in the movie is basically, like, the rocket breaking into two parts.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yes. Yes. So so that essentially is just the rocket rocket break and, just leave the the empty tanks behind. And and and so four or five or 10 stages will be even better, right, from efficiency point of view. But, but but engineering complexity increases in number of stages. The two stages like the sweet spot. One stage, single stage two orbit simply cannot make it. And, bare minimum, it's two stage.

Utsav Somani: And it's a starship. Elon Musk, when I arrived to send to Mars. Like, what is the technical composition and characteristics of that vehicle?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): That I mean, that's a great project. Starship may, the the while, of course, the payload is bigger, the the, all that is fine. But Mars has a peculiar problem that you have to, align. There's only, six month window. Because when Earth is on the other side of the sun and and something, right, that's a problem. So the window is limited. And, within that window, you have to you have to send enormous amount of material. Like, you cannot just send two people. Right? They how can they survive for because if somebody is going there, a person is going there, then they have to go for a couple of years. They cannot go for just because So together, you have to send enormous amount of weight. And, so tons and tons, you know, in single shot. So so that is the problem statement. And Starship basically is designed to solve that problem of of

Utsav Somani: of No. Wait. It doesn't like a payload. It's Starship

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Starship single, for for reaching I mean, Mars, it could be, I'm not entirely sure, but it will be see lower orbit So it will scale, below that somewhere. But even 110 is not enough. What you need is probably thousands and thousands of tons. So what how it will happen, in my opinion, is, Starship will keep accumulating keep accumulating and then in one shot send all of them. So something like that. That's how it will work.

Utsav Somani: Now quick all friends in Milan,

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Interesting times.

Utsav Somani: Interesting times. And talking about logistics and movement, Naman from Airbound. Naman, welcome to the show.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): I was muted. Hey, it's good to be back. Do you

Utsav Somani: know Neeraj from Astrobase and CoinDCX?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): I don't. I don't actually. I I You guys

Utsav Somani: absolutely need. Yeah. Because you are doing payloads of a different kind, and Neeraj is doing payloads of different kinds. So I think there is so much that you can learn because you're at the opposite ends of the spectrum. And I think at some point, you're both fighting on how your payloads can increase. You're fighting mass, to sort of, be

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Gravity is the enemy. Of course. I mean

Utsav Somani: What part of your

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): A great

Utsav Somani: I mean, I'll connect you guys also. But what part of your respective jobs is actually I mean, I wanna spend five, ten minutes with you together. What part of your jobs and engineering teams are actually spending time on reducing mass, in your launch vehicles?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): It's it's our entire job. This is, like, the entire thing we do. This is what, like, set like, this is this is the the core thesis of Airbound that right now, most of the way that planes move is the aircraft itself. And if we can change that, that is the single sort of spark that brings us to a world where flying is the most cost effective way to move anything. So that is, like, the

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): bread and butter of engineering.

Utsav Somani: And that's what you mentioned in the manifesto as well. So what is the weight of your vehicle right now, and how much do you wanna take it to? And what's the

Naman Pushp (Airbound): weight of it? So currently, we have a one and a half kilo vehicle that carries one kilogram of payload. You know, places where we want to get to is we wanna get to a place where, you know, you have, let's say, you know, like a three k g vehicle carrying five k g's of payload or then even scale it up to, you know, let's say, 15 to 20 k g payload 20 k g aircraft that carries a 100 KGs of load. So really get that ratio to be as high as possible where, you know, only only 15, only, like, 50 to 20% of the total mass is the aircraft. Everything else is just payload.

Utsav Somani: Wow. And, Neeraj, for you, are you fighting mass right now or just get the thing made firstly?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. Yeah. You are right. Right. Not not fighting mass as of today. Let it work. And then mass is an optimization problem, but we have to make it work first.

Utsav Somani: And what do you I mean, reusability must mean different things to both of you respectively. Right? Neeraj, what does it mean for you? And, Naman, what does it mean for you?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Yes. I mean, I think I think for us, reusability is is not about how can you reuse the aircraft, like, you know, five, ten times. For the kinds of cost we're looking at, you need the aircraft to be, you know, usable after, let's say, hundreds of thousands of flights. And so when you're looking at numbers at that scale, it's more, you're thinking more about this as, you know, a materials and

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): a reliability problem. How do

Naman Pushp (Airbound): you ensure that, you know, after many layers of cyclic loading, your structures still perform well? How do you ensure that structures need minimal maintenance even after thousands of flights? How do you ensure that your structures also have the reliability? Because it's one thing to make something that in theory can last, you know, a 100,000 flights. But in practice, you know, every 100 flights you have a crash, then then there's no point. So it's really more about getting to getting your reliability numbers, getting your durability numbers all to, like, you know, your 99.99. Right? Increasing the number of nights you have there.

Utsav Somani: And you've done 13,000 already, autonomous flights without any incidents. So that's crazy since the last time you've been on the show.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Yeah. It's been it's been a lot of lot of work going into getting the system. Right?

Utsav Somani: Neeraj, how are you thinking about reusability? How many times can a spaceship actually be, or a shuttle actually be reused?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. So I think, for us, the reusability comes down to the reusability of the engines because, they demand a lot of, they they they see a lot of wear wear and tear. And, the the the decision to choose a full-flow staged combustion is stemming from reusability because,

Utsav Somani: of if if

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): it sees, engines are exceptionally well suited for reusability. In fact, the reason why SpaceX has chosen them is because these are the only kinds of engine that can land and fly fly back immediately without any need for refurbishments.

Utsav Somani: Oh, wow. So just a few That is

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): yeah. Yeah. And, basically

Utsav Somani: If the engine I mean, if the suppose the rocket is maybe, I don't know, x, number of price. I think Skyward mentioned that each flight cost them $4,000,000. Whatever that number is for you, how much is the price of the engine itself to think about it?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Generally in generally, to give you perspective, generally, engines cost between 30 to 60% of the flight for rockets depending on various things, the size of the vehicle, and so and so forth. The engines alone, pure hardware cost will cost 30 to 60%. That's the range. So it's not like 10% and it's not like 80%.

Utsav Somani: And but if you will

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): And and yeah. But, but it's not about it's not about that. See, when when it comes to reusability for rockets, it's the operational challenge. It's a bigger operational challenge. If you land the aircraft sorry. If you land the, the launch vehicle, but to but to bring it back, or to the pad again in a flight for the condition after, each and every subsystem get goes through the testing again and be qualified for the flight. That is the challenging part. And so so reusability, achieving once is one thing. But, flying again and again and again at a certain cadence is is not about, the cost economics, but it's a lot about this operational challenge.

Utsav Somani: Talking about operational challenges, I think we've discussed hardware with both of you, before. But software players, man. Like, I mean, software must be a big, big part of it. And how are you thinking about hardware and software, the harmony of it all?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Yeah. I I think for us, it's it's a lot of just making sure these two systems play well together. I think our thesis here is that we have actually, over these many years, figured out most of the software around making autonomous systems work. Autonomous systems in the area very much do exist, and most of the challenges we face is in having the hardware harmonize with the software. How do these two things work work well together? How are you, let's say, able to create, you know, smart little integrations? Right? Like, let's say, leveraging a lot of the data you're getting from your motors to be able to calculate your set of gravity even flat. Right? I think these are ways that we see software harmonizing with hardware and where you can use, you know, novel software capabilities to make interesting hardware decisions. Right? One one very, like, critical decision that was made in a lot of aerospace, you know, maybe a few decades ago, was going to statically unstable systems. Right? These are aircrafts that just cannot be flown by a pilot without computer assistance, because we've gone to a point where computers are just so fast and so reliable that you can expect them to, you know, constantly be around. Right? And this is the same logic that quadcopters built on top of. Nobody can manually control a quadcopter. It requires reflexes that are simply possible. But we've got enough reliability in our control systems, in our high computers that we can certainly do that. So at everyone, we're really interested in, hey. What are these what are the interesting ways that we can leverage software to make even better hardware, to make even better decisions, and to enable things that, you know, would not have been possible in the past because we didn't these operating abilities.

Utsav Somani: And, Neeraj, for you, soft

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): testing insight. Yeah. I see Astrobase as a software. I see. My objective is to make Astrobase as a software company because because the softwares move much fast even at Astrobase. You know, the designers move much fast, and the hardware lags behind always. Hardware is always designed with the software first. Right? And then it goes for actual manufacturing and actual realization. And and suppose if we if I had a magic machine, which simply gives us any kind of hardware that we want, you know, based on the software, like, the designs in the software. But you need

Utsav Somani: to does. Right?

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. Of course. That's that's that's one of the things. You know, that's the reason why Astrobase is also very fast. But but but it still takes a lot of processing, preprocessing, post processing, and so on and so forth. And there are just n number of things in the hardware. It's a tough challenge, but but, but suppose if I had a magic button of, okay, you know, hardware I think we would we would be the we would be a $100,000,000,000,000 company. I'm telling you. If if if this magic existed, then we will be simply because the iteration speed will go, infinite infinity. You know? So

Utsav Somani: But before we let you go, Neeraj, I wanted to ask, like, both of you, what is that one technical improvement that you wish, you were not limited, wish you had but were not limited by physics or any other science, that would dramatically increase, your, I mean, business and the opportunities for you.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): I think for us, it's definitely that trade density. Like, a lot of our we can get a lot of unit economics, like, you

Utsav Somani: What was that word that you used? No. I'm sorry.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): I didn't answer. Sorry. Your battery energy density. Like, how many density. How many waters can I stuff in a kilogram of battery? Right? This is what defines it's basically your energy cost of movement, right, for us. And so while today, yes, we can make systems that are cost competitive with the ground that are actually cost competitive with real and shipping and all, I can't make these systems travel very far. Electric aviation actually puts a hard gap on how far you can fly. And in practical terms, this limits you to about 600 kilometers of range. If you're willing to just go all out on range and try to max it out, you can probably get to 2,000 kilometers. But that's still a lot lower than commercial aviation. Batteries just can't get you as far as jet fuel, because after 2,000 kilometers, every extra kilogram I add in batteries, actually, it brings my range down more than the battery increases.

Utsav Somani: So that the weight yeah.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Exactly. Right? The interesting thing is that if you think about the electric range equation, it's got a lot of different terms, but it's basically the energy density of your battery multiplied by what percentage of your aircraft is battery. And the problem is that that can never go beyond a 100%. There is a physical gap to that. Right? So the best that we can yes. Right now, we're able to do a lot of work in just reducing what percentage of the aircraft is other things so that we can allocate more to battery. But at the end of the day, the only way to break past the ceiling is to have more energy dense batteries.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): But would you

Utsav Somani: have, like, other fuel sources like hydrogen and all of that stuff coming in the future, which might actually be better sources?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Potentially. Right? I think there's there's a lot of, there's a lot of potential across fuel sources. But I think that's that's what really needs to be figured out. With hydrogen just, you know, storing it, managing it. And the while hydrogen is very light, it takes up a lot of volume. That also becomes tricky for aircrafts. With aircrafts, both weight and volume are very precious resources that you don't want to be giving to to fuel. You want to be leaving that entirely for people. So I think being able to access higher energy density batteries, higher density, you know, fuels, becomes a huge unlock.

Utsav Somani: Biraj, quickly, one technical improvement wish list, before we let you go. We've kept you on for too long.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah. Yeah. No. Thanks. So we have yeah. So, frankly, we are fighting against the gravity. The whole point is that, we have to fight against it. And if there is a way to overcome that, there are multiple things here. Of course, if we understand how gravity works, then then I think, it just changes everything. And, I wish we are the ones to first develop a a prototype again for that in the future. And but but more practically see, the the the entire purpose of the fuel is to is to exit the rocket at a very high velocity below so that the rocket body itself gets equal and opposite reaction. That's like Newton's law. Right? Every action has equal and opposite reaction. So rocket is based on that principle. So, right now, the the the fuel like this at, around, say, five kilometer per, per second from the rocket. Hydrogen, you know, is is very great at it. Hydrogen actually, has has highest kind of efficiency for generating thrust. But the problem is that hydrogen handling on ground is very tough. So that's why we have chosen LNG, or methane, which is slightly worse than hydrogen. So if some technologies exist that allow us to handle cryogenic liquid hydrogen at ease, then I think we can, probably double or triple our payload for the same vehicle.

Utsav Somani: Wow. Alright. You guys should definitely chat. I'm sure there is, I mean, there are some learnings that you can both, like, sort of exchange from each other given that it's separate industries, but I think there's generally

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Yeah.

Utsav Somani: So focused on movement as a unit of, business that I think it might be exciting for you to chat. Neeraj, thank you so much for coming on the show. Wishing you the very best. Cheers.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Thanks. Thanks, See you. And, Naman, you have raised a series a round. Right? I just saw it somewhere. Is it true? We know from DoorDash. Many congress.

Utsav Somani: Thank you. So DoorDash deliveries up, now will be powered by Airbound, I think.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Hopefully, in the near future. Yes. Amazing.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Wow. Amazing. Great.

Utsav Somani: Alright, Neeraj. Thank you so much.

Neeraj Khandelwal (Astrobase): Bye bye.

Utsav Somani: Alright, Naman. Thank you again, and big, big congrats. I think, what you've done yesterday, I think, is just phenomenal. So we're gonna cover a few things. I think a quick recap for our listeners, because they must have seen you in September. We were also learning how to run the show, but now we've sort of have a slightly bigger audience than last time. So let's do this recap. This where was the shot, this video?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): So this video was actually shot in Gondu, Andhra Pradesh. Okay. So we recently signed an MOU with the Andhra Pradesh government, to start drone deliveries there to basically create a framework for, you know, drone cities, cities that are entirely, you know, built on top of drone delivery as a service. So we've been we've been moving incredibly fast there. We literally we signed the amount you less than, you know, forty days since we first set foot in Andhra Pradesh. So that's been fast and fun. We've done over a thousand flights there since then. So yeah.

Utsav Somani: And there are very few areas where drones are allowed. Right? Right now, like, I think there are certain corridors. There's coastal, there's, marine, monitoring, and then there's medical deliveries and diagnostics. So do you think the regulations will allow for other use cases as well?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): So the interesting thing is that the regulations don't actually discriminate by use case. Okay. What they do discriminate based on is where you are flying and how far you are flying.

Utsav Somani: Okay.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): So where your flight comes down to, am I in a red, yellow, or green zone? A good way to think about it is, you know, red zones are basically military bases, areas around airports, etcetera. Yellow zones are just a larger radius around airports. So let's say and and airport is a fairly liberal definition. Right? If you look at Bangalore, your Indira, our air airport is an airport. You have a military airport in, in Yelahanka. So a lot of those areas become inaccessible for us, at least at the moment. So right now, we're working with green zones, which is the rest of India. So you do still have a lot of space there, just not in city centers. This is where Andhra Pradesh becomes interesting because there's a lot of green zones over there. And the second restriction is you need to fly within visual line of sight. So you need to fly within, the unaided, visual line of sight of a designated observer. And that's precisely what we're working with for the delivery network in Andhra Pradesh. What we're saying is that rather than having designated observers for each route, what we're going to do is we're gonna have designated observers for an entire city so that their line of sight overlaps and covers the entire city. So think about, like, you know, each person acts like a little bit of a remote ATC, that can, you know, sort of contact the pilot, tell them if anything is going wrong. And that means that, you know, with maybe three or four people, you can cover an entire city, and then you can do operations from any point in that city to any other point in that city. That's really what we're

Utsav Somani: It really becomes, like, sort of, like, a big, big corridor for you. What are some vehicles like? Like, I mean, what has changed since September? I mean, what are they made of? Battery tech, like, lithium ion, any other things? Like, what is, improved in the vehicle itself? Do you call them aircrafts or do you call them drones?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): We internally call them aircrafts or crafts because that's the engineering that we do. And I think that's also a very good engine analogy to, you know, what we care about. If you think about

Utsav Somani: Boeing versus running Air India. Right?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Exactly. And so if you think about, like, how Boeing is running the systems, you're not gonna ask, oh, what flight controller is going using? Oh, you know, what, like, what sort of electronics board are they using? Like, sure, those are important, but they barely make a difference to the aircraft. You differentiate an aircraft based on its structures, based on its aerodynamics, based on its fuel efficiency. And that's really what we focus on with our aircraft. So it's how do you make the aircraft easier to maintain and operate so that that, you know, that cost goes down? How do you make the aircraft cheaper to produce? How do you make the aircraft more aerodynamically efficient so you need to use less fuel to go the same distance? And how do you make the aircraft lighter weight so that a higher percentage of the mass you're moving is paid? These are the areas that we really work on, primarily the last one. And, you know, we've been making a lot of strides in the technology that lets us do this well. And what we're really excited to be doing moving forward is as we perfected this tech, bringing it into new designs of larger aircrafts that will be. There's a lot of things that we've learned over the past few years that we unfortunately cannot integrate into the TRT because it requires a counter predesign. And so rather than trying to awkwardly stuff it into an existing platform, we're instead choosing to build newer platforms that can carry heavier payloads and really show what a perfected version of this technology looks like.

Utsav Somani: And they will all be vertical takeoff ones?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): They will all be vertical takeoff. We believe in a world of vertical takeoff. I think if if you want to go towards a world where all movement happens in the air, runways everywhere is just not going to cut it.

Utsav Somani: Appreciate it. Yeah. And let's talk a little bit I mean, so you've not described the technology that you're using, by the way. Like, I mean, carbon fiber, what's I mean, just the general structure of this whole thing. Mhmm.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Yeah. So it's really around carbon fiber. And, you know, the most common thing people think about when they hear, oh, it's carbon fiber. It's like, well, I mean, that guy uses carbon fiber. Right? Like, you're not we're not discovering carbon fiber. That's true. Carbon fabrics existed, and people do use it. But I think what is often missed is just the sheer amount of time it takes for a material to really become mainstream. Right? This the shift that we're seeing from metals to carbon fiber is akin to the shift that we saw in moving from woods to metals. And the interesting thing is that we'd actually learned to smelt steel four thousand years before the industrial revolution. Yet the industrial revolution was the first time when you really saw steel at scale, where you saw steel being used as a material that the world is built on top of rather than something niche. We've only known how to work with carbon fiber for the past fifty to seventy years. It's a baby when it comes to, you know, material classes. And one of the hardest things that needs to change when you switch from one material class to another is you need to design around the new material. We saw the same thing from wood to wood to metals. Right? If you imagine, you know, a wooden bridge, you're imagining these, like, you know, thick, beefy logs, you know, around the bridge supported by these columns that, you know, give it strength. If you compare this to a, you know, steel, steel suspension cable bridge, it's very different. You have these thin strands of steel that support the bridge intention rather than in compression. And both of these bridges play to the strengths of their materials. If you took a wooden bridge and just said, hey. Replace those five logs with steel beams. It wouldn't perform very well. The steel wouldn't be able to show its you know, how much better it is as a material than wood. And we believe that we need to build that same design language for carbon fiber

Utsav Somani: as we saw. In the West, our design with wood, and in India, they're more brick based.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Precisely. And so what we believe is that you will see much grander benefits from using carbon fiber. Today, what's happening is that carbon fiber as a material has eight times the strength to weight ratio of wood. Sorry, of, like, the best metals that exist. Yet when we use carbon fiber instead of metals, right, the latest going aircraft are more than 50% carbon fiber. Even in the specific parts that are based with carbon, they only get a 20% benefit. It barely makes a difference because you're putting a completely new material in a design meant for an old material. It is the what we're doing with blades today is the exact same as taking that wooden bridge and just replacing bits of wood with bits of steel.

Utsav Somani: And, I mean, there are, I mean, so many questions that come to mind, but there are people who are asking, questions in our live chat. With respect to drones, are you also considering entering the drone launch drone dropped munition segment?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): We are entirely focused on civil logistics, and transport. We are currently not

Utsav Somani: And drone Alexandra asked, is drone based delivery possible in India given the density, or is it just something that's truly possible in US and Europe? And the second part to this is can you charge while in the air via solar?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): So we have evaluated a few options with solar. The challenge is that solar, unfortunately, for the extra weighted ads, it actually doesn't give you back enough for it to make sense, especially since our subsystems are so lightweight. Adding solar cells just actually makes you less efficient or more efficient, at least for a practical payload aircraft today. And sorry. What was the previous question?

Utsav Somani: The previous question was drone delivery possible in India given the density, or it's something only the best will do?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): No. Absolutely. I think, I think Well,

Utsav Somani: it's happening. Right? I mean, there were videos that went viral. We had somebody on the show, SkyAir, I believe, was doing drone deliveries.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Yeah. So I I think I I think the difference that we see here is that we're not picturing drone delivery as, you know, this exclusive last flight option, which is what people are imagining. And I understand the sentiment behind the comment. Right? If you're living inside a large apartment complex, the the drone can deliver to the front gate, but it can't deliver to your doorstep. Are you gonna go down? Is someone gonna bring it up? These bits are awkward.

Utsav Somani: Everyone's talking about quick convenience right now.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Exactly. Right? And it's awkward. And, yes, there are ways to make the awkwardness work, but that's not really what we're imagining when we talk about moving things in the air. We're talking about how do you replace, let's say, restocking of stores with aircrafts instead of trucks. Right? How do you replace straight movement with aircrafts? How do you replace the movement of people with aircrafts? And when you think about those movements, you need far more efficient aircrafts. But once you can do that, it it just makes a lot of sense. You can change the way your supply chains run. You can keep stores further away from customers. You will actually move towards an environment where there's less density and people can spread further apart. I think that, yeah, that segue well to the manifesto.

Utsav Somani: So this manifesto is amazing. I mean, man, kudos to you for putting this out. I think it's one of the best, put together history of movement and also, I think, a vision board for yourself and the team. I believe you went into the town hall today and spoke about this with the team at length. So talk to us about that. What were the key highlights for you? What should we take away from this as an audience? Like, where is the world headed? Like, take us, I mean, drone delivery is happening now, but take us thirty years down the line, fifty years down the line.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): I think what we have noticed throughout history is that the most meaningful way you can impact the world is by making movement significantly faster and cheaper. It's only when these two things happen together that you get a revolution. The last time we did this was, you know, when the steam engine happened shortly later with the automobile, and that was the industrial revolution. And that was the single greatest period of economic growth in human history. And the interesting part is that it's not just about how it changes your life directly. The car has not shaped our lives just because you can get in a car and go to places. But suddenly, if everyone can do that all the time, places start being positioned differently. You start to see growth around highways. You start to see cities expand a lot more because all of a sudden, the city is not limited by how far you can walk, but how far you can drive. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to create the next step change in that. What happens in a world where a city is limited by how far you can fly and not by how far you can drive? Right? This becomes a world where Bangalore and Chennai suddenly feels like the same city. This becomes a world.

Utsav Somani: We are just growing vertically, not horizontally, actually. Precisely.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): And when they grow horizontally, it doesn't work. Right? If you think about Bangalore, look, and she wrote JP Nagar, Itra Nagar, you know, Yalanka. These all feel like different cities that, you know, are just connected together by main groups. Right? Our office is here in Costco day. Enough of my friends talk about how we're in an entirely different city to Bangalore. Right? But what if we could make it so that these all felt like the same space? What if going from MG Road to electronic City was just a ten minute commute? Right? That's faster than going from some place in MG Road to another place in MG Road during peak traffic. That's really the thing that we wanna achieve. We wanna make cities feel significantly smaller while physically making them larger. The way we perceive, we don't actually perceive distance as humans. We perceive time. Right? This is why, you know, you don't say something is 50 kilometers away. You say it's five minutes away. Right? Or, you know, well, in Bangalore, it's more like three hours away. Right? But what happens when that 50 kilometer suddenly becomes a five minute commute? Your perception of distance changes. Cities change. Right? All of a sudden, the outskirts is now the middle of the city. Right? And so you get a lot of interesting, you know, second order effects as a result of that. And we're really interested in exploring those, exploring how the world will change and eventually rebuild itself around this technology. The same way cities and the world rebuild themselves around the train, around the car, in the, you know, early eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds. We wanna be the technology that rebuilds the world for the early, you know, two thousands.

Utsav Somani: And, I mean, we'll talk about the manufacturing facility. But for that reality to happen, like, what technical challenges, the major ones, do you have to overcome? Not challenges per se, but milestones that you have to hit. Like, for humans to be transported in these port like drones slash air star. And is Deepinder LED Aerospace also trying to do something similar?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Not a comment, actually, on on what, what what LAT is specifically trying to do with addition. But I think for us, the key milestones that we really care for is, one, we have to get to a place where the air is, the air is cheapest. Right? The air is the cheapest way to move things. And the interesting thing that we've realized is that this entirely comes out of date. The thing is that per kg moved, if I wanna move a kilogram of mass, one kilometer in the air versus one kilometer on the road, it actually cost me the same. The problem is that in the air, for, let's say, every kilogram that I move in the air, I can only move about 200 grams of payload. Only 20% of that is actually useful mass. Whereas on the road, 67% of it is useful mass. If we can make it so that the ratio. Exactly. If we can make it so that only 20% of what is going in the air is the aircraft, the useless mass. Right? And 80% is the payload, the useful mass. Suddenly, the air already becomes cheaper than the current without making any other changes. But that's not where it stops. What we find is interesting is that, like, once you get the step change, it's just a cascading loop. Right? What we wanna do is what Henry Ford did to the car. When Henry Ford made the model t and dramatically brought down the price of the car, suddenly what happened is a lot more people could buy a car, and so the market for cars exploded. Volumes went up a lot. And then, you know, suppliers saw that opportunity, and suddenly they started building components for cheaper. The same R&D cost that went into car will now split over a 100 tie times as many cars. Right? As the market grew a lot, the best and brightest engineers wanted to work in the automobile industry, and then they further brought down the cost of the car. And when you add up all of these compounding effects, the cost just keeps on going down. And we very quickly went from a world where the car was seen as this luxury vehicle, you know, where the rich people can move around in cars. The rest of us have to move around on a horse, to suddenly a world where everyone is supposed to own a car. And we want to make that world for flight. The today, you know, a private jet is only meant for the ultra rich. Right? It is it is the idea of flying in a personal transport is something that 99.9% of the population can never experience. Right? We want to create a world where flying in a personal transport is actually the default, where people that would previously take the bus now fly to wherever they wanna go. So, yeah, I think getting cost right is really key. And to get cost right, we have to get it right. And then we have to turn that into industrial scale.

Utsav Somani: And I get it. I mean, congestion is definitely a very big problem. Like, I mean, Elon Musk is trying to solve it with the Boring Company, where he's trying to go underground and create these, tunnels which sort of allow people to move from point a to point b faster, but that still doesn't solve it for everyone because it's still point a to point b, and the roots are predefined. But you would allow these pods to fly anywhere given the regulations and stuff. Of course, this is looking into the future. And talk to us about the state of the business now. Like, you've done these, 13,000 flights, autonomous flights. Now you have a manufacturing facility. You've raised from Greenoaks and Greenoaks I mean, Neil is a a dear friend. He was the one who actually interviewed me for, AngelList India role, by the way, Neil Shah.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Oh. Yeah. I did not know that. Yeah.

Utsav Somani: Well, you did my ref check and, interviewed me then. And, you've raised from DoorDash also. What was the pitch for DoorDash? Why is DoorDash investing in a company in India? And probably the first, time they've ever done so.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): No. Absolutely. I think it was it was really exciting to have DoorDash invest. It's a lot of firsts for DoorDash. I think I unfortunately can't be you know, I can't speak for DoorDash on why precisely they wanted to invest. But I think at least our hypothesis is that we are we're betting on a very different world. Right? We're betting that, you know, this technology and the world we create out of it will play out very differently to what most people expect. And I think for a company like DoorDash, they really want to invest in that future. Right? I think much like, you know, how you're seeing with Microsoft having been an early partner in OpenAI because they they really wanted a piece of that, you know, future that they believed AI could bring out and what AI is already starting to bring up today. We wanted, you know, we we'd like to believe that DoorDash had the same thought process when wanting to invest in us. And that's why they chose to invest in us over, you know, other drone delivery companies.

Utsav Somani: Exactly. They're based in The US. They must have probably spoken to or been pitched by every drone delivery company or anything else, that's out there. US is, of course, a hotbed for innovation as well. But tell me a little bit more about the factory and the manufacturing unit. You were making, I think, two or three pieces a day of these drones?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Yes. Absolutely.

Utsav Somani: And that was September. What's the status now?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): So right now, you know, we've we've built out a lot more capacity. You know, we're building out capacity for significantly more aircraft. Probably looking to get to, you know, around 2,000, 2,000 a year, in in our production capacity. We've also been focusing a lot on just getting a lot of consistency in, in our supply chains, in our production. Right? Previously, when we hit two, it was a lot of it was a bit of a sporadic two. Right? Like, you can maybe get to two a day, but then, you know, someone's sick, someone takes an off, some supply chain shock comes in, and suddenly your capacity goes down a lot more. And so you're forced to be a lot more rigorous when you're thinking about monthly or annual production rates, because they're you know, it just like, you have to be consistent about that. You can't just maintain it for a week. So that's it. We've been we've been doing much more regular production. We're really using this production to, you know, teach us about the system, about how to get better. And our we're trying to be very particular about how we increase production. Right, because we, today, are using manufacturing as a tool to learn more about the system, and that tool has to be very carefully used. If you produce if you don't produce enough drones, you can't learn anything because you're not building systems. You're not learning from the real world. But if you produce too many, then manufacturing also carries an inertia that makes it harder to iterate and improve on the product. So we also have to be very careful to, like, balance that

Utsav Somani: skill in

Naman Pushp (Airbound): the right You're

Utsav Somani: still in that R&D phase. But talking about R&D, maybe the final closing question. You've raised 37,000,000. You spoke about two challenges that I've caught on. Like, I think the battery tech and the material sciences problem. Like, are you investing in those spaces? Do you have people from specialized, like, battery domains like that specialize in battery tech globally and, learning about new materials that might be getting made across the world that you can potentially use in the future and maybe pioneers for?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): So right now, I would say on batteries, I think we're still, unfortunately, a bit too small of a company to make a dent in the battery space. Right? lithium-ion tech is something that has I people have probably spent a trillion dollars on getting lithium-ion tech to work, and it is at a very much short place. So, I do hope that eventually we can get into that, but that is a journey for, a few years down the line when we have a couple billion in the bank. But on the material side, yes. Absolutely. Like, materials is very core to us. But the way we see improvement is not in finding new materials or finding materials that perform better, but it is in finding better designs for the materials we already have. A good way to think about this is all of structural engineering is really about shape. The way you know, the reason why we use, you know, columns to support buildings is because that shape is more efficient. The reason why you see a lot of triangles in architecture is because that shape is highly efficient. The reason why, you know, you have these I beams used in construction is because that shape is really good at resisting bending loads. And that at its core is what material science is as well. Material science is shaped at the molecular level. It's that's why, you know, carbon fiber as a material is so strong, but the graphite in your pencil, which is also cut, is so weak because it has to do with the shape, shapes that the molecules make. What, you know, we are really interested in and what we're pioneering in is shape at the scale of millimeters. We're able to create new manufacturing methods that let us create complex complex structures, structures that we could typically only make at the scale of meters at a much smaller scale. And being able to control shape to that level allows you to make things far more light. Right? You can optimize for the shape within the shape. And that lets us make these incredibly lightweight structures, you know, and achieve things that just feel physically impossible. Right? Parts that fall slower than paper while still being able to take multiple kilograms in board. So that's what we're really investing in, when it comes to, you know, our definition of material science and structural engineering.

Utsav Somani: Naman, this was phenomenal. Congrats to you and team Airbound. But I think before we close, any message of inspiration for other 19 year olds out there looking to get into hard stuff, like the real deep tech stuff and solve really technical problems?

Naman Pushp (Airbound): I think the most interesting thing I learned in this journey is it's a controversial opinion, but it's not as hard as it seems. I thought that making a dent in, you know, the scientific frontier, making a dent in what is possible in aviation would be much, much harder than it's been. I think what happens when you build really hard things is that people just want you to succeed. The best people want to work with you. And all of these factors compound to make it so that building hard things is actually not that much more difficult than building the seemingly easy things. And so, hey, if you can do either, why not build hard things? Why not build something that'll change the world? I think changing the world is a lot easier than most people think it is, and I think a lot more people should, you know, try to do it.

Utsav Somani: Absolutely love it. Everyone has the same twenty four hours. It's what we do with them. Thank you so much, Naman. This was phenomenal. Wishing you, again, a very, very best. Cheers.

Naman Pushp (Airbound): Same.

Utsav Somani: Alright, listeners. That's it from us. We went on for longer than expected, but this was a phenomenal show. We've heard from, I mean, two founders who want to change logistics and movement, entirely. One for space, one for, between cities, and then we heard about Revspot, which is trying to build a lead enrichment engine for, companies and across sectors and segments. Phenomenal. I think this is 05:21PM. We're signing off. We'll see you on Friday at 04:00. Bye bye.